• IHeartBadCode@fedia.io
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    88
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    12 days ago

    I just don’t get how people are looking at Harris’ stance as being pro-genocide. Biden is the President and historically, foreign policy during the tenure of the President by the Vice President doesn’t veer too far off from the President. That said, Harris has absolutely called for investigation into the suffering of civilians in the conflict.

    Congress sets the budgetary amount of aid to direct to Israel and the President distributes the money via their diplomatic channels. There are very few options for the President to just suspend funding, which Biden has done twice for weapons under the rules established within 10 USC § 362 (a)(1)

    Of the amounts made available to the Department of Defense, none may be used for any training, equipment, or other assistance for a unit of a foreign security force if the Secretary of Defense has credible information that the unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.

    But outside that, there’s very little the President can do once Congress approves funding and that funding has been signed into law. This is why an independent channel investigation is required and is exactly what Harris has called for. This would allow the the US Government to establish their own inquiry into the human abuses. This would give the required evidence to cancel funding under Title XII authority. But none of that can happen overnight. It’s not an easy path to override the will of Congress.

    On the opposite side, Trump has indicated that he will absolutely turn a blind eye to the whole thing and allow Israel to determine solely the “best” course of action for their current conflict. Trump has literally stated in his rallies:

    From the start, Harris has worked to tie Israel’s hand behind its back, demanding an immediate cease-fire, always demanding cease-fire

    Trump would not see a cease-fire as a required condition for the on-going conflict.

    Harris and Democrats historically have called for a two-state solution. Trump’s plan which has been broadly adopted by the Republican party in general would:

    • Give Palestinians only about 15% of their original territory
    • Jerusalem would become Israel’s undivided capitol, meaning all claims by the Palestinians to the eastern half of the city would be tossed out.
    • Allow Palestinians to “achieve an independent state” via a means that is not clearly defined in the plan but indicated that Israel would have a final say in that process.
    • “No Palestinians or Israelis will be uprooted from their homes” indicating that the territory that Israel has already colonized from their current conflict would become Israel’s.
    • Would put Israel and Jordan on equal footing for the administration of al-Haram al-Sharif, which will absolutely ignite a conflict.
    • Any territory allocated to Palestinians would have to undergo a four year “wait” period, but there’s no protections from Israel obtaining that territory if done so during conflict. So Israel could provoke someone to fight them and that would give them justification to take the land during this “four year wait period”.

    Trump has all but given up completely on a two-state solution. Which means, he’s for a one state solution. And people are fooling themselves if they believe that Trump would seek a “peaceful” one state solution. He has told Netanyahu directly, “Just get it done quickly”. Now we can play a game as what manner is used to “get it done quickly” means, but only idiots are the one’s thinking that doesn’t give a tacit nod to ethic cleansing.

    I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don’t think they are thinking at all. You have one solution that is long, stupid, and required because we are a nation of laws. And you have the other solution that is “fuck it, firebomb them all and call it done”. It is difficult to imagine that there are truly people this blind and ignorant to this reality. But yet, here we are.

    The notion that we might get a 3rd party into office like twenty years from now if we start today, helps nobody if the people we’re trying to help are all eradicated over the next four years. Going down this “third road” only ensures an outcome where we are fifteen years too late to help.

    • ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      12 days ago

      In really it’s probably a mix that totals to around 90% of the people making these pronouncements are either bots, paid trolls from enemy nations, nihilists, or the equivalent. The remaining 10% probably have a genuine belief that voting for Harris makes them complicit in the genocide the Israeli government and its military are committing. They’re incorrect, on many levels, but that is probably their genuine belief.

      We must always vote for the lesser evil because that’s what the real world is, from the most negative point of view: reducing evil and suffering. We know some of the things we’re doing today will be seen as evil by our progeny. We don’t know others.

      A Harris administration will be the most likely to reduce the suffering of Palestinians, the most likely to force the Israeli government and military to end the genocide, and the most likely to make real strides toward middle east peace.

        • kmaismith@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          12 days ago

          I’m torn on how to approach this, i’m left with a couple of options:

          A) so Trump would somehow be even less self defeating?

          B) are you suggesting we should all spontaneously rise up and overthrow the military industrial complex?

          C) if you think this world view is self defeating then:

          C.1) you owe some clarifying thoughts as to how you see a measured response to the existing democratic systems as self defeating

          C.2) you appear to be making yourself out as someone who idealizes violence and oppression

          C.3) you appear to be using contrarian language with the explicit purpose of dragging down the mood of the conversation. Quit that shit

        • Pips@lemmy.sdf.org
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          12 days ago

          Whereas, and forgive me if I’m mistakenly assuming you’re advocating not voting for Harris, your worldview is just defeating. Every candidate but Harris will ensure that Palestinian suffering increases. Not voting will deny Harris a vote, therefore necessarily increase the odds of someone else winning and Palestinian suffering increasing. Palestinians are saying to vote for Harris. Votjng for a third party (all choices there, by the way, either actively endorse Trump (RFK Jr.) or are funded by Russia (Stein) so supports the genocide of Ukrainians) remove a vote for Harris and increase the odds of Palestinian suffering increasing. There is no scenario where if you’re an American citizen you can be a neutral bystander.

          At this point, if you don’t vote for Harris, you’re voting for ethnic cleansing and genocide, quite possibly at home as well as abroad.

    • Artyom@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      26
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      edit-2
      12 days ago

      It makes no sense, but have you considered the possibility that most people pushing that narrative are Russian assets trying to get Trump elected?

    • BrioxorMorbide@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      15
      arrow-down
      8
      ·
      12 days ago

      I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don’t think they are thinking at all.

      They live in cloud cuckoo land where Biden/Harris can just tell Netanyahu “Fuck off and shove a grenade up your arse, you genocidal maniac” and that would actually work.

      • johker216@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        11
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        12 days ago

        They believe in Schrodinger’s Jew: that Jews simultaneously control US politics and that US Presidents control Israel.

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          9
          ·
          12 days ago

          No they believe that US politicians are bribed and blackmailed and they don’t want to support those politicians. Either way I don’t want to vote for the candidates supporting and paying for genocide.

          • madjo@feddit.nl
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            12 days ago

            Must be awesome to live such a privileged life that that’s the only thing you have to care about in this election cycle.

            Women’s healthcare issues? LGBTQ rights? Interracial marriages? The US economy? The environment? Kids’ lives? Nah, you only care about Palestinian people. Well done you! Golf claps for you.

      • Azzu@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        12 days ago

        Most of Israel’s weapons come from the US. It’s very well possible for the US congress/government to say “no more weapons if you use them for agression”.

        • phdepressed@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          12 days ago

          Biden tried just slowing weapon shipments earlier on and Rs and some Ds rammed a bill through saying nope, no slowdowns on these shipments allowed.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          9
          ·
          12 days ago

          Nooooo!!! Anything other than perfect support at all times for everything Netanyahu does is Trump support from Russia! Every lemmy genocide supporter says so!

  • metaStatic@kbin.earth
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    51
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    12 days ago

    Where where these people of moral conscience when Bernie had a shot?

    it’s not like this shitshow sprung up overnight.

  • LovableSidekick@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    26
    ·
    12 days ago

    Single-issue voters are ignorant to begin with, but failing to help stop another Trump presidency isn’t the moral high ground. If you’re in that group there’s no point polishing your halo, because you are shitting on it.

  • dan00@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    2
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    12 days ago

    You can always leave the country. The biggest leverage you have over your country is you staying there and keep paying taxes. There is always a choice.

  • Media Bias Fact Checker@lemmy.worldB
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    2
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    12 days ago
    NBC News - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)

    Information for NBC News:

    Wiki: reliable - There is consensus that NBC News is generally reliable for news. See also: MSNBC


    MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America


    Search topics on Ground.News

    https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/bernie-sanders-to-voters-skipping-presidential-election-over-israel-trump-is-even-worse-222793285632

    Media Bias Fact Check | bot support

  • EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    17
    ·
    12 days ago

    God forbid Biden/Harris actually change their handling of Israel.

    They always expect the millions of voters to change rather than the dozens of politicians to change to align with the voters.

      • IntangibleSloth@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        12 days ago

        I think she will change things, but can’t really speak out like she would probably want being she is Biden’s VP. Either way, Trump will only make things worse.

        • _bcron_@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          12 days ago

          We can guarantee there’ll be no Ukraine and no Gaza if Trump takes office. Coin flip if he randomly decides to hulk smash Iran to show the world he’s a big tough guy with the best bombs (which would inarguably lead to far-reaching ramifications).

          Best thing that could happen if they changed their stance re: Israel is that Trump can now claim he’d do it sooner and the blood of countless Palestinians is on their hands, and that they’re only trying to score political points by turning their back on their allies, and that they’re flip-floppers that are incompetently throwing spaghetti noodles at the wall. This would get Benghazi-ed so damn hard.

          Trolley problem

      • EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        12 days ago

        I would assume that Biden has a vested interest in Harris winning. That’s why I specified Biden/Harris in my original comment, rather than Harris/Walz.

        • pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          12 days ago

          How is Biden having an interest in Harris winning at all relevant to the powers of the vice president or her actions if she is elected?

          Biden and Harris are two completely different individuals, which is a fact that you guys seem to forget.

          • EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            12 days ago

            So which is it? Biden is in charge and isn’t changing stance? Or Harris isn’t in charge but also isn’t signaling a departure from Biden if she is elected?

            Either way, neither Biden (who is actually in charge) nor Harris (who isn’t in charge) is changing (Biden) or stating an intention to change (Harris) their handling of Israel.

            • Em Adespoton@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              12 days ago

              Did you read the rather long text at the top of this thread? It explains all this rather well.

              • EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                5
                ·
                edit-2
                12 days ago

                Yes. Fwiw, my first comment here preceded that one.

                Edit: also, that comment addresses something different than what we’re discussing here. The responses here seem to be fixated on Harris being VP rather than president. The comment you are pointing out discusses Biden’s limitations in managing this situation. Different issues, different discussions.

    • _bcron_@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      12 days ago

      Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. PACs just gotta snap their fingers, flyers ready to print, websites ready to host like newspapers stockpiling living celebrity obits

  • vga@sopuli.xyz
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    1
    arrow-down
    18
    ·
    edit-2
    12 days ago

    “Even worse”, eh Bernie. Perhaps don’t milquetoast the risk, huh?

    He’s starting to sound like a Green Party voter.

  • Cruxifux@feddit.nl
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    20
    ·
    12 days ago

    Democrats have taken the stance that it’s absolutely UNTHINKABLE that they could possibly not support a genocide, instead full bore opting that the other side’s genocide support is somehow worse. Man, fuck these people so hard.

    • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      11
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      12 days ago

      Like it or not, a significant portion of the country is in favor of supporting Israel, and so they have to walk the line of supporting Israel without supporting genocide, because if they don’t they also lose.

      Republicans can campaign on being pro-genocide, give weapons to Israel on the condition they use them with less discretion, and make a campaign promise to deny asylum to any refugees and they don’t lose a vote.
      Democrats have to support Israel and Palestine, which is nearly impossible to do without a degree of “please don’t use this gun wrong like you have every other time”.

      If you actually don’t see how a Republican administration would be vastly worse for Palestinians, I don’t know what to tell you.

      https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/