Authorized Fetch (also referred to as Secure Mode in Mastodon) was recently circumvented by a stupidly easy solution: just sign your fetch requests with some other domain name.
Repeat after me: anything I write on the internet should be treated as public information. If I want to keep any conversation private, I will not post it in a public website.
I agree with you, however there are issues with not just privacy but also authenticity. I should be able to post as me, even in public, and have a way to prove it. Nobody else should be posting information as me, if that makes sense.
For that, we should start bringing our own private keys to the server, instead of trusting the server to control everything.
And if we start doing that, pretty soon we will end up asking ourselves why do we need the server in the first place, and we will evolve to something like what nostr is doing.
I’m all for it.
…evolve to something like what nostr is doing.
Giving places for cryptobros to wank without being pointed at and laughed at by their betters?
No. You are thinking of Discord.
I’m pretty sure that 99.44% of nostr is cryptobros.
My friend, you suck at trolling. Can you just let it go?
When I see nostr users that number more than, say, six who aren’t also cryptobros, I’ll drop the nostr disrespect. Until then … 🤷♂️
Sure, but that’s already solved on the fediverse by using HTTP Signatures and isn’t related to Authorized Fetch.
I meant to say generally, for folks that might read this comment and think problems surrounding the platform and security are solved.
Clear sign every post using a third-party application. Make your public keys known far and wide. Authenticity solved.
And now we’re dealing with key management instead
You always need key management if you have decentralized authentication.
You always need key management if you have decentralized authentication.
To add a bit of important nuance to this idea (particularly how this argument comes up with regards to threads). This does not apply to legal rights over your content. That is to say, of course you should treat any information you put out there as out of your control with regards to access but if somebody tries to claim legal rights over your content they are probably breaking the law.
Right. Publicly available does not mean in public domain. But the issue here is not of copyright, but merely of gated access.
Totally. I’m just trying to bring it up whenever I see folks having this discussion because some people don’t seem to make the distinction. Worries me that some are so willing to cede that big social will illegally hoover up our data and there’s nothing we can do about it.
Seriously. Bobthenazi could just go to an aligned server and make an account Bobthenotzi and boom – perfectly able to follow whoever he wants.
One more reason to argue that we should drop the idea of “aligned” servers and that we are moving to a future where it is better to charge (small) amounts from everyone instead of depending on (large) donations from a few.
Ideally, a distributed fediverse wouldn’t need much in terms of donations because it’s a bunch of small instances instead of a few huge ones.
Not the point. The point that instances that are open for everyone will be open for bad actors as well.
If the mere act of signing up to an instance requires a small payment, you are automatically preventing the absolute majority of spammers, “spray and pray” scammers and channer trolls.
anything I write on the internet should be treated as my private information. If I want to keep any conversation private, I will still post it in a public website.
EDIT: I’m so sorry that my stupid comment offended some people. Always forget how special some people can be on this website. Once again I’m sorry for my lack of better judgement.
Wow, why are you so triggered just because some people didn’t think you were funny?
About as triggered as those who downvoted me.
No, you’re right. Everyone who downvoted probably also went on an angry tirade first, but they just didn’t type it out. Totally the same. 👍
?
He thought he was funny, he repeated what the above poster said to repeat.
I don’t think your comment was offensive per se. It was just ridiculously naive. If we are trying to build practical tools, they have to fit how things work in the real world, not how they work in anybody’s dreams. If you want to have private conversations on a public website, use encryption.
And so, once again, people discover the unsolvable dilemma of DRM.
You can’t both publish your data where it can be seen by computers that are not under your control and somehow keep control of that data. Anything that purports to do so is either a temporary bandaid soon to be bypassed or nothing but placebo to begin with.
What I think a lot of conversations about privacy and security on the Fediverse miss is that the Fediverse is radically public.
A protocol that sends everything you share to a long list of servers that haven’t been pre-screened and could be anything from a professionally-managed instance of vanilla Mastodon to an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of ActivityPub running on a jailbroken smart light bulb can only ever be radically public. It’s possible to block most interactions with someone you don’t want to talk to, but not to reliably prevent them from seeing content you share to anything more than a short list of vetted followers.
There probably isn’t any reasonable way to change that while keeping the open federation model, though it’s possible to build closed networks on top of ActivityPub for those who want the formats it supports for a curated group. This isn’t a problem to be solved in my view, but an inherent reality: the Fediverse is for things you want to make public.
Exactly! The only way that we can make sure that the Internet is not controlled by anyone is to make it available for everyone. If we are fighting for an open internet, we need to understand that this type of thing will be part of the package.
We, by which I mean some loose group of people who want decentralized tools to thrive should also be building things for secure, private communication, and we are. Matrix, for example offers strongly end-to-end encrypted federated chat rooms and private messages. It also has a kind of rough UX and, IIRC resource-intensive server software. We should work toward improving that.
I’m not advocating against privacy at all. I want people to understand as clearly as possible that Mastodon, Lemmy, and anything that works like them isn’t private and can’t be private when part of an open federated network so they can decide whether that’s a good fit for how they’re using it. The block evasion described in the link is just run a server on a domain that isn’t blocked, and I imagine any other mitigations bolted onto Mastodon that don’t break open federation will be little better.
tools to thrive should also be building things for secure, private communication.
Sure, but this should not be seen on the same class of software of “social media” or even “the web”.
Matrix […] has a kind of rough UX and, IIRC resource-intensive server software. We should work toward improving that.
Except that I get the vibes from the Matrix community that the shit UX is part of the attraction because it does a wonderful job of gatekeeping.
I don’t hold out much hope for Matrix working out ever, but perhaps someday someone will use it as inspiration for making something that doesn’t suck.
Matrix is the protocol. You can have whatever client you like. There are mobile apps that are similar to discord and connect to matrix servers.
I’m kind of tired of social networks offering even the pretense of privacy. Just loudly proclaim that everything is public but clients can filter out shit you don’t wanna see.
I have no idea what any of that meant.
I still could use an ELI5 about what this authorized fetch feature was supposed to do. Was it supposed to basically disengage the Mastodon network from Threads? To stop Threads crap from showing up on Mastodon? Or to stop Mastodon discussions from showing up in Threads? Or something different?
Authorised Fetch existed long before Instagram Threads. When it is turned on, an instance will require any other server to sign their request to fetch any post. This prevents “leaking” of posts via ActivityPub to blocked instances.
This setting is turned off by default, because some software are incompatible with it (like /kbin, Pixelfed before June 2023, maybe Lemmy too), because it makes server load higher, and it may make some replies missing (at least on microblogging side).
When it is turned on, an instance will require any other server to sign their request to fetch any post. This prevents “leaking” of posts via ActivityPub to blocked instances.
Oh I see. Yeah that sounds pretty hopeless. Does it use the fetching site’s domain validated TLS certificate? Is the idea to permit fetching unless the fetching domain is on a blacklist? If yes, someone didn’t have their thinking cap on. The whole concept is dumb though, there is no way to prevent posts from leaking. The saying is that once 3 people know a secret, it is no longer secret.
Stop asking for pseuso-privacy features. The Fediverse is public by nature. Any “measures” to control access to the public posts on it are just lying to users.
Server owners should be able to control who can access their servers - but that is NOT - and should NOT be - treated as a privacy feature.
“The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.” - John Gilmore
