US culture is an incubator of ‘extrinsic values’. Nobody embodies them like the Republican frontrunner
Many explanations are proposed for the continued rise of Donald Trump, and the steadfastness of his support, even as the outrages and criminal charges pile up. Some of these explanations are powerful. But there is one I have seen mentioned nowhere, which could, I believe, be the most important: Trump is king of the extrinsics.
Some psychologists believe our values tend to cluster around certain poles, described as “intrinsic” and “extrinsic”. People with a strong set of intrinsic values are inclined towards empathy, intimacy and self-acceptance. They tend to be open to challenge and change, interested in universal rights and equality, and protective of other people and the living world.
People at the extrinsic end of the spectrum are more attracted to prestige, status, image, fame, power and wealth. They are strongly motivated by the prospect of individual reward and praise. They are more likely to objectify and exploit other people, to behave rudely and aggressively and to dismiss social and environmental impacts. They have little interest in cooperation or community. People with a strong set of extrinsic values are more likely to suffer from frustration, dissatisfaction, stress, anxiety, anger and compulsive behaviour.
It’s because his base are fucking idiots.
I have lots of empathy for people and usually try not to judge people by demographics and happenstance, but this pestilence of right-wing mouth breathers all over the world is an absolute horror show.
Organized ducking idiots are truly scary. They’re the equivalent of a stupid tsunami with all of civilization built on the seaside.
It’s difficult to abandon your empathy, but we have to confront them to save us all.
I have very little empathy with people who are wilfully ignorant and determined to destroy others’ education or quality of life.
And yet, you still blame the voters, and not those in charge of their education system, socialising, the media they consume, and so on… 🤔
Oh I am fully aware that they are the feckless recipients of the generous largess of their masters.
The dark money that has fuelled their descent into cultural and intellectual retardation (not a slur on congenital learning disabilities) is criminal.
Yet this section of society seems ravenously hungry to become worse and infect others.
But the people in charge are the people they voted for… I suppose this is a chicken/egg situation?
That assumes that they could have voted for anyone, when in fact the ruling elite preselects which candidates are even allowed to run, plus the media (also controlled by the ruling elite) make sure that you get no access to high-quality information about any candidate (least of all the “undesirable” ones).
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The popular vote went to Hillary. The current American ‘democracy’ is not very good and needs to be fixed with more democracy.
…so the voters? Who vote for their education system?
We are well past this. The damage has already been done and there is no quick fix for it.
I definitely think plenty of them are ignorant and uninformed. But it goes much deeper than that. Many of them feel that government hasn’t served or helped them in decades or even lifetimes. And they’re not wrong in that.
The real problem is they don’t view themselves as being part of the issue. They’ve externalized everything to the government and made it the government’s fault. Therefore there’s nothing they can do. Since they are blameless, in order to change it. They perceive themselves as having done everything right despite having done everything wrong. And so logically in their minds. The only solution they can see is to tear it all down. And hope the warlord that replaces this system will be slightly magnanimous to them.
It doesn’t matter that it’s a thing that never happened or lasted longer than a year or two when it did. Because the alternative would be to admit fault and learn from it. Something which culturally we’ve largely been conditioned to reject.
A very good analysis and much more generous than my hot late night take.
Oh we all feel like that sometimes for sure. Don’t beat yourself up over it necessarily. As much as we hate to admit it, sometimes though. We have more in common with them than we let on. The real problem is how to reach people like that. If we could we might be able to make actual change.
The main issue being American history and culture is all about whitewashing, hero worship and propaganda. What would be an effective way to go about disarming all that? If we could do that we’d be home free.
But being born in the 70s I know pretty well how deep and total it was for many. Hell I didn’t really break out of the brainwashing until my 30s. And I consider myself lucky for that. I know plenty still hobbling along using it as a crutch to this day.
Honestly sometimes it really feels like the older generations dying off might be the only realistic solution. Yes there are still a lot of shitty young conservatives. But the permiation of the internet in daily life has definitely loosened the shackles a bit for younger generations. Course, it’s also gaslit and radicalized plenty too.
Great take.
I too was born in the 70s and thought that “things were getting better”. Racism was disappearing etc.
Little did I know about the dark forces of Conservative thought and money control bubbling under the surface.
A slightly random angle on your comment: there’s a great episode of Decoder Ring (Slate) talking about Daniel Boone and the modern mythos of him created in the 50’s by Walt Disney. A very good listen.
Yes, Disney is definitely not innocent regarding whitewashing. Bloodless Cinderella was a real crime. But yeah Daniel Boone and all the things we collectively forgot about the Alamo.
Indeed !
They are extremely wrong in their perception of government though.
We’re living through a zombie apocalypse. The zombies just happen to be more high-functioning than they are in movies.
Yes! And the populist demagogues love it that way.
That’s true. But what is to be done about it?
Calling these people names won’t fix the problem. It won’t eliminate them and it won’t convert them. So what will?
As I’ve said. It was a moment of frustration.
I have lots of empathy for people and usually try not to judge people by demographics and happenstance
but you don’t, and you are…
The frustration that we feel over bigotry can be expressed in so many ways. We don’t need to rely on ableist slurs. Alternative phrases are more descriptive, and more accurate; unintelligence is not the prevailing problem with right wing extremists, for instance, nor is it the cause of their actions. Ignorance, prejudice, and disregard for the rights of others are.
Conflating harmful actions with lack of intelligence does everyone a disservice. To suggest that “stupidity” that is what makes people act badly undermines any real accountability. The causes of problematic behavior rarely have anything to do with mental acuity, and we can’t properly address harmful behavior while being so reductive about its causes. Carelessness, bias, hatred, greed, closed-mindedness, indifference – these are the traits that lead to oppression. Our intelligence is not the issue so much as our sense of compassion and justice.
A person can be unintelligent and still know right from wrong. There are people with cognitive disabilities who I respect a thousand times more than those who are supposedly more abled. They have stronger principles, seek to better themselves, and are committed to being good people. They are just capable of being sensitive and caring as everyone else. To imply that they aren’t is outrageous.Oh hey! I’m not saying that people with limited cerebral facilities are automatically bad. I’m saying that the particular conservative base are fucking idiots in a really determined and self-fulfilling way which feeds their own pathology.
Remember there’s that study showing that conservatives are literally neurologically different and physically primed for fear and disgust due to brain structure.
Plus, to be honest, I’m really really frustrated reading about all these assholes and the damage they cause to what could be a progressive society.
Demagogues like Trump are nothing new… and are only able to gain ground when a population is angered by the inaction of others in power to ease their real material suffering.
Medical debt, unaffordable housing, price-gouging, a lack of upward mobility or the ability to afford retirement or having children… all these things make it easy for demagogues to offer scapegoats.
Really - to beat Trump, we just need a firebrand populist who will try to pass legislation that helps the average American and - when unable to pass specific such legislation that would alleviate real tangible problems faced by the overwhelming majority of Americans - would use the bully pulpit to loudly push for the change they support are unable to enact - letting their voters know where to direct their anger and power.
Only genuine populism can soundly beat fake blustering demagoguing populism, because fake populism is designed to only emulate real genuine populism rather than offer up actual solutions to problems faced.
People want universal healthcare, they don’t want wars, they want to be able to take care of themselves and their family, they want the corrupt punished and justice for the citizen harmed by the giant multinational corporation’s greed driven pollution, waste, or lack of safety.
Fake populists only offer fake scapegoats and vague gestures. A real populist loudly and accurately points to the root of these issues.
You want to beat Trump? Then we need Biden to have been this his whole time in office… and to be this now.
The fact that the White House is focusing now more on pushing for anti-deepfake porn measures - only because billionaire Taylor Swift has been wronged by it - rather than making it so Americans can avoid losing their homes, jobs, or medical coverage - is ammo for lying demagogues to then disingenuously blame such problems on trans-kids and illegal immigrant workers.
I don’t know about a populist but what we need are a lot more progressive, pro-labor types along the lines of Bernie and AOC.
We need major FDR style New Deal reform (assuming I understand what that was): economic security, health security, more power to the working class and less power for corporations, among many other things.
What we need less of is pro-corporate, neolib types (e.g., Pelosi), fascists, crooks, reactionaries, and zealots (e.g. …well, any GOP politician).
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We need major FDR style New Deal reform (assuming I understand what that was
You’re talking about the below:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
And its contemporary application:
Why yes. Yes I am.
Honestly you don’t even have to go that far. Democrats have spent the last 20+ years dismissing or ignoring problems. All they really need to do is acknowledge they are problems and maybe some lip service about helping them.
The big thing is just stop offering non-solutions that may be well intentioned, but sound like leave your shit hole town and get some education.
I disagree about the lip service part. Because that just gives them ammo for years from now. But do SOMETHING to help.
My problem with saying do something is that the something democrats routinely choose ends up being worse than doing nothing.
What is the evidence of this?
The New Deal and The Great Society seem to disprove this notion.
And Biden’s recent Inflation Reduction Act, Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, and American Rescue Plan Act are the strongest domestic investments in US history since the Great Society, which was 60 years ago at this point. Making Biden’s legislative wins the strongest accomplishments in most Americans lifetimes
Dems need to do way more, and Biden is still not sufficient. But idk if it’s true that his legislation has made things “worse”
All this pseudo-analysis comes across as failing to see what Trump is a symptom of and instead presumes Trump is the root of the ailment.
This sentence is out of place. In the rest of your post you’re agreeing with the article.>
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I would be careful about descending too deeply into any kind of populism tbh. Politics should be more technocratic than liturgical, without being too much of either.
The grievances of the people need to be heard, and it is inevitable that the elite class will grow deaf to those needs over time.
This isn’t because technocrats will act out of malice; rather it means the system that they serve will be bought out by oligarchs who will bend all existing structures to serve their own goals rather than the goals of the people.
A strong judicial system can help to prevent that. Unfortunately judiciaries can also be bought, as the United States has recently seen
Why people fall for demagogues is part of oroblem. Understanding why they listen to them will help us make that firebrand we need.
only because billionaire Taylor Swift has been wronged by it
Wait what? I’m not sure I believe this. Do you have proof?
Right, so stripping away all the bullshit: he’s a gaping, hemorrhoidal asshole, beloved by other assholes.
And a significant portion of the American population like assholes because they are assholes.
But then, do they just not care if the information they’re being fed is verifiably untrue?
It confirms their biases. Confirmation bias is a hellofa drug.
Don’t forget he smells like hot ass.
They are more likely to objectify and exploit other people, to behave rudely and aggressively and to dismiss social and environmental impacts. They have little interest in cooperation or community. People with a strong set of extrinsic values are more likely to suffer from frustration, dissatisfaction, stress, anxiety, anger and compulsive behaviour.
So, half the country has antisocial personality disorders, basically.
And that’s by design.
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Yes. And my little pet hypothesis is that many of those with antisocial personality disorders are the result of prevalent cycles of emotional abuse and neglect.
Sure, cycles of emotional abuse and neglect which are being caused by people with antisocial personality disorder.
It’s the cycle of the drama triangle. In the end, everyone ends up a victim.
That doesn’t mean half the country isn’t caught in it.
No, just a quack trying to pathologies individuals reacting to our social systems of oppression exactly as they were designed to.
Individuals reacting to oppression in a way that causes disease (mental illness) is part of the study of pathology.
Also, modern psychology is well aware U.S. culture is a pathogen, and the journalist was also aware considering they drew parallels between mental health and U.S. culture.
In fact, psychology is becoming more blended with sociology and medicine all the time. They can’t really be separated out the way they’ve been done in the past. Because of this, I’d like to point out, that the psychologists aren’t trying to blame individuals, but point at the conditions creating the disease.
And in the paper’s abstract, they pointed at U.S. political culture specifically (our social systems of oppression).
Implications for contemporary political discourse are discussed.
Everyone has this hot take about why people support Trump. It’s not rocket science and it definitely doesn’t require a PHD to understand (lord know he doesn’t have one and none of his supporters do either). It’s very simple: America is a country where half of the population hates everybody who isn’t a conservative heterosexual cisgendered white man. Sounds crazy. But it’s the truth. Trump makes these people feel okay for carrying such hatred. That’s it.
Except that’s not the case at all. Reality isn’t that simple and if you believe it is then you need to get out of your bubble and start listening to your left-wing allies in Trump country when they tell you what is going on.
Wow since when did Cracked start writing the truth.
This article is absolute gold. It’s the same I try to tell people here in Germany with the AFD voters. The article nails it…
It will never stop when we keep going at it by trying to change people by telling them constantly how bad and stupid they supposedly are.
While correct, the why is also very important. It’s not always pure hatred of the other out of nowhere, it’s propaganda outlets causing you to believe the things/people you aren’t entirely comfortable with are the exact reason things are so bad in the country.
We have a gigantic propaganda problem that has no real solution as our 1st amendment (rightfully) protects our media even if they’re completely antithetical to our continued survival as a nation… It’s fucked up.
Then we need a new constitution built on today’s technology and values.
Which won’t happen unless our government is dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up.
We’d better get cracking then
America is a country where half of the population hates everybody who isn’t a conservative heterosexual cisgendered white man
… but doesn’t that beg the question, why half of America is like that? I wouldn’t find the answer “they just are” sufficient.
Modern conservatives believe poor people have it easier than rich people and the majority ethnicity and religion are oppressed by the minorities. They are comfortable and uninterested in learning, but believe they should be treated with the upmost respect and consideration.
The factors are:
Lack of empathy
Stupidity
Fear
Its not just a lack of empathy.
its a downright terrified fear of empathy.
Because they think giving a shit about their neighbor might make them liberal, or gay, or whatever other weird connection their fucked up driven-mad-by-fox-news-brain comes up with.
Same reason they are terrified of trans people, because they are terrified of being attracted to a trans person cause, in their head, that makes them gay, which comes with the fear of being treated like they’ve treated gay people.
Honestly, almost everything comes back towards a baseless, ignorant fear. Mostly fear of having done to them what they’ve done or wanted to do to others.
its a downright terrified fear of empathy. Because they think giving a shit about their neighbor might make them liberal, or gay, or whatever other weird connection their fucked up driven-mad-by-fox-news-brain comes up with.
It’s a fear of empathy, but not for the reasons you describe.
Working class conservatives are afraid of caring for their neighbor, let alone caring for a stranger, because they fear being taken advantage of. They fear being victims of a scam. They fear being deceived. They fear that the person asking for help is actually a rich person who is dressed up like a poor person because asking for handouts is an easier way to make money than working for a living. Where you and I see the unhoused and the genuine victims of capitalism, they see grifters and charlatans.
Which is all obviously a distortion of actual reality - the unhoused are not tricksters who are out to deceive us. But that is the narrative that needs to be addressed and countered if we want to build genuine empathic behavior
This is just as false as saying “all liberals are snowflakes”. There are people who lack empathy, sure. But all people show empathy. The difference is that for liberals there is less of an out/in group mentality. And so they express empathy more widely. For conservative people (in the context of this article) they feel empathy just like everyone else, except it is only towards their in-group. Because of this idea of being different to out-groups.
Well then they must hide it really fucking well, Cause there sure hasnt been any outward signs of empathy towards their in-groups.
Just a cycle of no-true-scotsmaning themselves into smaller groups any time someone dares to have wrong-thought.
Utmost*
Decent summary, but I would put fear as no.1 reason. Everything leads back to fear and denial.
This writer almost gets there, but stops short of figuring it out. He cites the current British treatment of the homeless, including a £2500 fine for rough sleeping: presumably if they had £2500 to spare, they wouldn’t be out on the streets.
I think it’s because the current batch of Conservatives are not content with simply using their extrinsic values to shape policy, they also have to use the tools of Government to punish people who don’t share their values. Look no further than all the Culture War nonsense in the US these days. Our Conservatives have turned their heartfelt belief that life begins at conception and are using it to punish those who don’t believe that way. And they are openly hostile to LGBTQ+ people.
I think the conservative mindset is always looking to punish others lower on their imaginary hierarchy.
I think this study is more at the root of the issue:
"One explanation for this might be that conservatives see “loyalty” as an innate moral principle and liberals don’t. There was a study that asked people to explain how they judged scenarios as right or wrong. It came to this conclusion:
Liberals have three principles by which they judge morality: care/harm, fairness/cheating, liberty/oppression
Conservatives have six principles by which they judge morality: care/harm, fairness/cheating, liberty/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, sanctity/degradation.
This explains why it’s hard for conservatives and liberals to have a debate about morality. Say the topic is flag burning. The conservative would say that burning a flag violates sanctity but a law against it violates liberty, so the principle of sanctity must be balanced against the principle of liberty. The liberal doesn’t see sanctity as a moral principle so only sees the violation of liberty. The liberal can see no reason to ban flag burning and can’t understand the conservative’s reasoning. However, both can agree that murder is wrong because it harms people, and that rich and poor must obey the same traffic laws because of fairness.
These are two extreme examples, but if I understand the theory correctly moral reasoning exists on a spectrum. A question for those who believe they don’t see sanctity as a moral principle at all: if your beloved dog died of natural causes, would you be comfortable serving its body as a meal? If you hesitated at all, you’re at least slightly morally conservative.
Dead link now: https://www-bcf.usc.edu/~jessegra/papers/GrahamHaidtNosek.2009.Moral foundations of liberals and conservatives.JPSP.pdf
Possible alt: https://daverupert.com/2017/08/jonathan-haidt-the-moral-roots-of-liberals-and-conservatives/
More differences:
Agreed, but it seems that Trump’s rise has coincided with a change to those 6 conservative values. Sanctity in particular seems to be drastically less important than it used to be, as vulgarity has been embraced by the right to an unprecedented degree. Gone are the days when Ned Flanders and David Brooks personified the typical conservative. Vulgarity, foul language, lack of church attendance, sexual impropriety, substance and gambling use, etc are all drastically more acceptable today than at any point in America’s post-WWII history
Having said that, there still are elements of Sanctity that these conservatives care about - kneeling during the NFL’s national anthem being one of them. But these occurrences seem to be increasingly uncommon
People are stupid. Saved you a click.
Lead pipes
Gas leak?
This isn’t anything that hadn’t been said before. What they are describing is shitty people and assholes. Folks have been saying that for awhile now.
The type of people breed by suburbs; under-socialized and lonely.
We are not born with our values. They are shaped by the cues and responses we receive from other people and the prevailing mores of our society. They are also moulded by the political environment we inhabit. If people live under a cruel and grasping political system, they tend to normalise and internalise it, absorbing its dominant claims and translating them into extrinsic values. This, in turn, permits an even crueller and more grasping political system to develop.
If, by contrast, people live in a country in which no one becomes destitute, in which social norms are characterised by kindness, empathy, community and freedom from want and fear, their values are likely to shift towards the intrinsic end. This process is known as policy feedback, or the “‘values ratchet”. The values ratchet operates at the societal and the individual level: a strong set of extrinsic values often develops as a result of insecurity and unfulfilled needs. These extrinsic values then generate further insecurity and unfulfilled needs.
This is the actual interesting point here. Framing with some epiphany about “extrinsic” and “intrinsic” values is just putting a psychology-friendly label on things we’ve been saying since 2015.
On the other hand, I fully admit I thought that Trump being elected would backfire big on the GOP, and that America, seeing how awful he was and how readily GOP members of congress flipped on democracy and embraced fascism, would recoil. I thought after a horrible 4 years, the GOP would be done in the country. And at first, it was true. The “Muslim ban” and his other nonsense always triggered 5-10% drops in polls, which then recovered thanks to Fox News and other news orgs normalizing it. And then…it just stopped. It became fully normalized around 2018. After that, nothing impacted his polls.
Now we’re staring down 2024 with Trump at all-time highs and the right-wing base is just getting worse and worse. Trump’s supporters have abandoned their moral standards, abandoned actually testing their candidate (Trump) against any values they previously held. So now, I at least find that this explanation makes sense.
It’s a nihilistic view of humanity - that people will just get worse and worse if people like Trump continues to be allowed to make the behavior “acceptable.” - but at least it explains the data.
It’s the normalisation that disturbs me the most, the gradual slide into what would once have been seen as abhorrent.
Show some of the headlines from just this last week to people in 2015 and I expect most would recoil in horror. The GoP’s presumptive nominee openly using racist dog whistles; a court case where the judge warned jurors to never reveal their identify because of the fear of reprisal from the GoP nominee and his followers; the raw fact that he sexually molested a woman in the 90s; his instigation of civil war on the border in Texas… To name but a few.
All of this stands shoulder-to-shoulder with articles discussing his political prospects, his strategy to win over voters, how he is polling among white, middle-class women… as if he is in any way a normal candidate.
We need to take a step back, to think about what is happening here. Sadly, the very people who need to listen are the very people who can’t listen, people for whom any negative discussion of this candidate would merely serve to strengthen the narrative and reinforce the reality they’ve conjured into being.
There would seem to be no way out of this situation that won’t take decades, and which doesn’t stand every chance of being derailed whenever an election goes the wrong way.
Some psychologists believe our values tend to cluster around certain poles, described as “intrinsic” and “extrinsic”. People with a strong set of intrinsic values are inclined towards empathy, intimacy and self-acceptance. They tend to be open to challenge and change, interested in universal rights and equality, and protective of other people and the living world.
People at the extrinsic end of the spectrum are more attracted to prestige, status, image, fame, power and wealth. They are strongly motivated by the prospect of individual reward and praise. They are more likely to objectify and exploit other people, to behave rudely and aggressively and to dismiss social and environmental impacts. They have little interest in cooperation or community. People with a strong set of extrinsic values are more likely to suffer from frustration, dissatisfaction, stress, anxiety, anger and compulsive behaviour.
Pretty garbage takes here: we have the good, properly motivated group that votes for good guys and the bad people who are attached to the superficial and illusions…
This would not be different from a conservative analyzing the left as motivated by prestige/status (proper virtue signaling as approved by academia/mass media) and material gain through democrat policies, while the right is motivated by reason and real values, true philosophy, etc. Something I think we’ve heard done…
Pathologizing your political opponents is absolutely never a good look whether left or right does it.
I will not say that there are aspects of the above that are not true, however, just as how some leftists are very performative and only concerned with appearing correct and receiving accolades from people they admire. But to really suggest the majority of Trump voters (which are conservatives in general) are not motivated by their own principles and visions is just demonizing your opponents.
This article strikes me as the typical dayjob of “intellectuals” - to explain to the masses why they are being fucked not because how the system is fucking them, but because for some fancy esoteric reason.
Trump embodies a new fascism and the neoliberal system reducing effective quality of life and prosperity and education and manipulative media and science denial have paved the way for it for many decades. But to look at those root causes, the justified anger and easy manipulation would mean pointing the finger at themselves and at their masters.
So their job becomes one of confusing people to distract from meaningful change. A lot of this simply has to do with material prospects, and when it gets too bad it opens the door for people who promise inequality in order to solve it.
I’ve been thinking about this article again. I think your comment gets at what people are missing from this article. The author is very much saying the system is fucking us. The reason is straight forward and I have noticed this about my conservatives friends. They want to be successful, be famous and win at any cost. They’ve internalized the late stage capitalist system we live in and made the flaws that enable massive wealth disparity their values.
We are not born with our values. They are shaped by the cues and responses we receive from other people and the prevailing mores of our society. They are also moulded by the political environment we inhabit. If people live under a cruel and grasping political system, they tend to normalise and internalise it, absorbing its dominant claims and translating them into extrinsic values. This, in turn, permits an even crueller and more grasping political system to develop.
If, by contrast, people live in a country in which no one becomes destitute, in which social norms are characterised by kindness, empathy, community and freedom from want and fear, their values are likely to shift towards the intrinsic end. This process is known as policy feedback, or the “values ratchet”. The values ratchet operates at the societal and the individual level: a strong set of extrinsic values often develops as a result of insecurity and unfulfilled needs. These extrinsic values then generate further insecurity and unfulfilled need
This is how we end up with tankies, people on the far left who go to bat for communist dictatorships. And I’ve talked to a number of tankies on lemmy. They’ve internalized the flawed democracy we live in and made the flaws that allow for minority rule their values. They don’t just want to impose their economic polices on everyone using a dictatorship. The dictatorship is what they value. It’s the system they already think they are living in. To them doing away with the electoral system is just doing away with a valueless formality. To them the US has always been a dictatorship.
Fascists don’t just want to impose a dictatorship on everyone using their economic policies. The late stage capitalism is what they value. A tiny minority owning all the wealth where everyone else lives in destitution is the system they already think they are living in. To them doing away with social programs to fix wealth inequality is ensuring the natural order of things. To them hundreds of millions of people below the poverty line is normal.
Intrinsic values vs extrinsic values explains the modern saying, “Nobody wants democracy, they want a dictatorship that agrees with them”. This isn’t about liberals vs conservatives. This about what people believe our society is fundamentally about. It’s people who see the flaws in our society and want to do better vs the people who see the flaws in our society and think that is the way it has always been and that is the way it should always be. Different people internalized different flaws in our society, but they were all fucked by the same system. If we fail to stop fascism now, the next generations will have worse conditions to live under. Many of them will internalize those conditions as their values and then they will in turn create worse political and economic conditions.
I see it more like a slime mold, or bio film. There is energy here and there, some poisons there, some predators, and basically everything is controlled by the gradients of energy.
Lets assume for a moment that large states work like that to a degree. Not purely like this but to a large or at least significant degree. This is not meant to be dehumanizing: With individual humans you can have intelligent conversations but in large masses we maybe don’t work like that at all. A view like that is completely ignored in mainstream media and politics. Possibly because it’s bonkers, but humor me:
Ideology or values isn’t what guides these processes, it’s what’s secreted by specialized cells that form symbiotic relationships and in return receive more energy from large concentrations of chemical energy. Lets call them “intellectuals” and the concentrations of energy “capitalists”. It’s not a conscious process, but over time certain secretions helped increase the power and energy reserves, and in tern replicated and diversified and was further refined. Billions of cells in this biofilm can thus create complex behavior.
So humanity could work quite similarly except that humans are of course intelligent and would be much smarter on their local level, just doing their obs, advancing their careers, making that money. All that is needed to be completely stupid on a global level is that certain viewpoints are suppressed as “radical”. One method might be:
“Well it’s about extrinsic and extrinsic values! The individual cells…” bla bla bla… sorry I just get so angry at this shit. Public relations is about mass psychology, how people can be categorized and then marketed and manipulated to. So yeah values do play a role but they are more like a technology, a tool wielded by those with all the money to pay the smartest sociopaths.
Instead you have to look at the rules and systems that are in place and create these outcomes and in tern generate new outcomes. Like the details. And many have been manipulated in favor of… . A major property of our civilization is extreme wealth inequality and therefor power imbalance, a few people owning everything. Or systems like how people are filtered before they become journalists and spew ideology in turn.
It’s people who see the flaws in our society and want to do better vs the people who see the flaws in our society and think that is the way it has always been and that is the way it should always be.
There is a modern definition of fascism which is about instilling a belief in “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”
So that’s happening presumably because inequality has gotten so bad, the old formula don’t work any more. So new ones, or old ones in new style are tried. Most likely it will be rejected but it proved a good distraction and helped further wealth transfer.
But the old formula lead to this situation. In a way that makes the old formula just as bad. Because anyone who tries to mess with primary motivation - moving along energy gradients - is filtered out. When was the last time you read an article about the psychologically corrosive nature of advertising or PR?
So how are we ever going to change this if we’re all constantly pulled back into this illusion?
But things are breaking now. For one we’re still on the worst case climate change pathway RCP8.5 - we haven’t diverged a bit in 30 years: Because we are absolutely unable to make rational logical decisions as a civilization. This is very strong evidence that what we’ve been doing doesn’t work on a fundamental level.
But tell me more about the extrinsic values of Trump :D The guy belongs in psychiatric care, the real issue is how can a sick person like that get so rich and powerful. We cannot expect amoral systems to produce productive results. It’s got nothing to do with values.
Geez sorry this is way too long of a rant lol
Geez sorry this is way too long of a rant lol
It’s fine. It’s good to vent. The first half of your post with the microbe analogy got at the important issue that our systems our what causing the problems. This is not being disputed. I get disliking intellectuals over complicating things and missing the point. However in this case, this intellectual’s point is that there is a self reinforcing mechanism in those systems.
Neo liberalism leads to fascism. Neo liberalism creates economic inequality that gives fascists room to reach the masses via blaming peoples’ problems on an out group like migrants. But Neo Liberalism also entrenches that inequality as a value in the people living under it. So when the fascists arrive and promise to uphold that inequality and in fact expand upon it, there is already a large group of people who believe the fascists are establishing the natural order of things. I often see people online asking the question how can anyone support Trump. Whether Trump realizes it or not he does embody what his supporters value. Trump is very much a symptom.
There is a modern definition of fascism which is about instilling a belief in “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”
I read through it, it does a good job of covering the many facets of fascism. Ur Fascism also does a good job of defining fascism. However I am not defining fascism where you quoted me. I am defining the divisions in America. We are a divided society. But not in the way most people think. It’s not left vs fascists. We have people on the right fighting for late stage capitalism because they grew up with that and have made its flaws their values. We have people on the left who have no interest in fighting for our democracy. They have grown up with the flaws in our democracy that enable minority rule and made those flaws their values.
But tell me more about the extrinsic values of Trump :D The guy belongs in psychiatric care, the real issue is how can a sick person like that get so rich and powerful. We cannot expect amoral systems to produce productive results. It’s got nothing to do with values.
You are right, we can’t expect late stage capitalism to have productive results. This idea is not an abstract concept and is really less about Trump. Again he is just a symptom. This gets at how people feel about our systems of government and economics. It really does have to do with what people value. People, myself included, often say the Republican Party doesn’t stand for anything. That they have no values and the voters are just rooting for their political party like it’s a sports team. While the Republican Party itself doesn’t have a real platform, their voters do stand for something. They stand for capitalist system where a minority of them can be rich like Trump.
But things are breaking now. For one we’re still on the worst case climate change pathway RCP8.5 - we haven’t diverged a bit in 30 years: Because we are absolutely unable to make rational logical decisions as a civilization. This is very strong evidence that what we’ve been doing doesn’t work on a fundamental level.
Yes, things are getting bad because of our systems. But there is no point at which things will get bad enough to make people realizes the system needs fixing. I think this idea explains the why behind the saying people use when describing Russia “and then it got worse.” Living under flawed systems that generate inequality doesn’t make people want to change the systems. Instead people normalize the systems. So if we rely on things getting worse and assume that eventually people will be forced to try to fix the systems we will be disappointed. They will in fact create even worse systems, based on the flaws they internalized as values, that then make things even worse. It is a feedback loop.
But the old formula lead to this situation. In a way that makes the old formula just as bad. Because anyone who tries to mess with primary motivation - moving along energy gradients - is filtered out. When was the last time you read an article about the psychologically corrosive nature of advertising or PR?
Unfortunately this individual didn’t do a great job of getting his point across in the article. I clearly haven’t done much better. I can really only insist to people that there is a valuable idea here. We need people to reexamine their values. Or else people on the right are going to keep voting for Trump and people on the left are not going to be interested in upholding democracy, our best tool for enacting positive change. edit: typos
Conservatives believe in a hierarchy and stratification of society.
They simply place themselves as the leaders and arbiters of that order based on their self-appointed superiority. They will always place themselves at the top of the totem pole.
Therefore, even if they were to completely acknowledge their failings (not a chance), their failings will never be reason to upset that order; but everyone else’s failings, perceived or real, will be more than sufficient to be kept to the end of the totem pole stuck in the dirt.
Jfc, this is pathetic, but sadly reflective of the actual big picture it thinks it’s giving - trump is a symptom. He is not the cause, he is not the single issue that we need to “beat”, the system that enables him to exist is.
That same system that indoctrinates all of society in to capitalism and the systems of oppression it (and the likes of trump) relies on.
The same system this psychologist is conveniently ignoring to get their nonsense published as some sort of revelation, when in reality it is serving that very system by continuing to deepen the divide in the working class and blame those being manipulated instead of those in charge of the system based on manipulation.
Some people being able to break free from that indoctrination doesn’t magically make those who don’t [insert ableist slur/armchair diagnosis], it makes them victims of a scam. And you don’t free them (and by extension yourself) by blaming them and pretending like if only they voted for the other puppet in the 4-yearly illusion of choice show all our problems would be solved, you free them by ending the fucking scam.
(to be clear - this doesn’t mean you don’t hold people accountable for their actions, but that you look at the big picture to gain some fucking perspective and understanding, and then hold people accountable for what they’re actually responsible for, rather than everything that is wrong in the world and systems far beyond their control, and then pull a shocked pikach face when it doesn’t work. No fucking shit sherlock…)
Agreed, this is well written. It seems even more see obvious trump is a symptom because so many other trump-esque politicians are rising up and finding success across the globe in many other countries. Right-wing recessionism is really popular right now, but it’s mostly because the systems themselves seem largely without hope, and broken.
