Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same.
”C++ is a horrible language. It’s made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it’s much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”
Torvalds just really dislikes C++. He’s gone on the record saying that he thinks it’s just not a good language. In his own words “C++ is just a waste, there is no design at all, just adding some scum on top of C.”
The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries.
I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits).
Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented.
It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language.
”C++ is a horrible language. It’s made more horrible by the fact that a lot
of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it’s much much
easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if
the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out,
that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”
That’s my guess, but there was a conversation on the mailing list a few months ago that wasn’t just immediately shut down, even by other prolific developers
Ts’o seems skeptical, but is at least asking whether c++ has improved
Take a look at what even the proposer is saying wouldn’t be allowed in:
(1) newand delete. There's no way to pass GFP_* flags in.
(2) Constructors and destructors. Nests of implicit code makes the code less
obvious, and the replacement ofstatic initialisation with constructor
calls would make the code size larger.
(3) Exceptions and RTTI. RTTI would bulk the kernel up too much and
exception handling is limited without it, and since destructors are not
allowed, you still have to manually clean up after an error.
(4) Operator overloading (except in special cases).
(5) Function overloading (except in special inline cases).
(6) STL (though some type trait bits are needed to replace __builtins that
don't exist in g++).
(7) 'class', 'private', 'namespace'.
(8) 'virtual'. Don't want virtual base classes, though virtual function
tables might make operations tables more efficient.
C++ without class, constructors, destructors, most overloading and the STL? Wow.
Is there some lore about this I don’t know?
There is no C++ allowed in the Linux kernel and Linus has gone on several major rants about how terrible a language it is.
Is it all C?
According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is:
So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts.
Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it’s more like 5-10% asm.
Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad.
Sometimes you can’t get around it though.
Wot no Delphi?
No VB6 either 🤷♂️
How can one write a kernel without using VB6 at all?
There’s assembly and makefiles too
Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers.
rust too
Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same.
I’ve read that they are writing parts of the kernel in Rust
Yes, I think Rust is a better C++ and will replace it in many places. Though all three will be around for ever to be honest.
Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel.
Rust is certainly interesting. I think it’s the C++ we need.
Exactly my thoughts 👍.
Always has been
Why do I suddenly feel a meme coming on? 😅
Then why does he write C++?
https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface/commit/1b16d570a1b6700295153bd6597b148b65000458
”C++ is a horrible language. It’s made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it’s much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”
http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
Literally apply that train of thought to JavaScript and JavaScript is in an even worse position than C++
JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really.
Torvalds just really dislikes C++. He’s gone on the record saying that he thinks it’s just not a good language. In his own words “C++ is just a waste, there is no design at all, just adding some scum on top of C.”
he’s not wrong
In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome.
they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it’s otherwise statistically impossible
The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries.
I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits).
Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented.
It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language.
Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with.
”C++ is a horrible language. It’s made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it’s much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”
http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus
I don’t know about Linus, but the last time Reiser’s wife was seen, she was writing a c++ hello world
For an example from the other poster’s explanation:
https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/
This was pre c++11 - not sure if he’s changed his mind at all with more modern c++
He absolutely has not.
That’s my guess, but there was a conversation on the mailing list a few months ago that wasn’t just immediately shut down, even by other prolific developers
Ts’o seems skeptical, but is at least asking whether c++ has improved
https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240110175755.GC1006537@mit.edu/
Take a look at what even the proposer is saying wouldn’t be allowed in:
(1) new and delete. There's no way to pass GFP_* flags in. (2) Constructors and destructors. Nests of implicit code makes the code less obvious, and the replacement of static initialisation with constructor calls would make the code size larger. (3) Exceptions and RTTI. RTTI would bulk the kernel up too much and exception handling is limited without it, and since destructors are not allowed, you still have to manually clean up after an error. (4) Operator overloading (except in special cases). (5) Function overloading (except in special inline cases). (6) STL (though some type trait bits are needed to replace __builtins that don't exist in g++). (7) 'class', 'private', 'namespace'. (8) 'virtual'. Don't want virtual base classes, though virtual function tables might make operations tables more efficient.C++ without
class, constructors, destructors, most overloading and the STL? Wow.