Sooo… the working class should own the means of production?
Yes, but let’s try to achieve that without state ownership of the means.
How can the working class own something if the state owns it?
It’s very simple.
Nationalists nationalize.
Socialists socialize.
If one is doing the other it means somebody is lying to you.
That’s just nonsense there’s plenty of reasons certain resources should be nationalized. Why do I care if the company that owns all the clean water is owned by one asshole or a group of them? Certain things in a nation belong to the people of the nation as a whole. Namely the national resources. No one company deserves to own that.
WinCo is employee owned and still pays minimum wage lol
If you look here, all the jobs are above minimum wage.
Or… What if we just stopped working? https://youtu.be/2i0RrGx_GrE
Haven’t watched the video yet, will do somlatwr, but if no one worked, we would over amshort time literally return to the stone age.
Who would make for for all? Would we have to scour for our own food again, each on their own? There is a reason we do farming, it is MUCH more efficient. A hand full people can make grain, beef, flour, and bread for hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It liberates all those other people to work on other things and make society grow.
If we all do our own food then in no time growth will stagnate, loads of people will fail to make their own food and decide to get it from others, and since there is no police anymore either (they’re busy making and finding their own food) there is no protection either.
We would to have time to keep up infrastructure. More fertilizer would mean that there wouldn’t be enough food produced for everyone, the world would go back to about 2-3billion humans. In on itself not a bad thing, there are too many humans, but 5-6 billion humans starving to death sucks.
No more modern medicine, no ody is working anymore, remember? Sucks to be a diabetic, bye bye. If you’re trans, you’re outta luck, you got bigger fish to fry.
We CAN’T stop working, we’d die out. If that video means something else, then the title is wrong.
What we can do is redistribute wealth. Nobody should need to work two jobs and still not be able to meet rent, that is absurd.
I also haven’t watched the video, but also allow me to weigh in with some stuff I’ve heard.
The way I’ve heard it is that if people stopped going to their jobs they would very quickly take up necessary and actually productive work required by them and their communities.
I’ve heard it more in the context of bullshit jobs. For instance if I didn’t have a job to go to then of course I’d pitch in on real work, like working some rows at the local farms, or covering some shifts at the local shops.
The way I’ve heard it is that if people stopped going to their jobs they would very quickly take up necessary and actually productive work required by them and their communities.
So they stood going to their job to…do another… Job? Like, really?
I know there are ahitty jobs out there, loads.of them, but they still have to be done. Do you think a supermarket magically restocks itself? People seem to want all the perks of, you know, the results of jobs, but nobody wants to do them. That’s not how that works, that’s not how anything works
And you’re saying that if you didn’t have a job them you’d do real work? That doesn’t make any sense, do you hear yourself talking? If I didn’t have a job then of course I’d get a job… wut?
A job is a job. If someone is willing to pay you money to do something tmfor him, then that’s a job. It may appear useless to you but likely it’s not because someone is paying money for what you’re doing. If you don’t like what you’re doing, get a different job. if you don’t qualify due to low skill set, then work on that, get more skills, trian yourself in something, take free courses on the internet, whatever it takes.
But stop with this “we don’t want to work so that we can work in our community” shit.
I think you’ve got stuck on a semantic point. The distinction is between working for money and working for utility.
Both rely on incentives, just different ones. Money doesn’t have to be tied to actual value or utility.
Dude, what are you even talking about?
You still work. You’ll still have a boss because work still needs to be coordinated or group output would fall to single digit percentages of what’s actually possible. You will still have to pick upshitty tasks because somebody has to…
Taking money out of that equation is the semantic, that is the least of the issue, but also the issue that actually makes things easier, you get a generic interchangeable good that you can use to purchase whatever it is that you need. You want to get rid of the one thing that makes things actually easier.
Thanks for your reply. You could even still use money in the process as long as accumulating more of it (or capital more specifically) wasn’t the goal of the work. You see a kind of diet version of this for example with public benefit corporations. Obviously, working for one of those would definitely be a job, though.
Anyway I’m getting way off the original point (which I actually don’t remember), but I think you get the picture I’m painting.
Look, like it or not, but capitalism is absolutely the most powerful system for people to improve and grow. We need to use it in a limited and controlled fashion (very strict laws against monopoly, etc) to fund a socialist network on too of that that uses the funds to ensure everyone had free healthcare, free education, housing where needed, etc. make sure no-one can brote than 10 times richer than the poorest person out there by applying taxes as needed, more money,ore taxes.
I work in consultancy and have a dream of forming a small elite company of consultants, employee owned, just 10 or so people who are shit hot at their jobs.
I would plan for it to always be 10 people, deliberately no growth. Do the job well, take a good wage, have some parties.
It’s when companies look for massive growth and shareholder value that everything starts to go to shit.
Its definitely the dream!
10 is a lot of cats to herd though. Do you already have your fantasy football team ready? Do you think that they share your (lack of) ambition?
At the same time 10 is a small number if a couple go on parental/sick leave at the same time. Are you ready to ‘hold the baby’ and get no extra credit? Who will do the admin/HR/sales/marketing/taking-the-bins-out/whatever you don’t like doing?
10 people is enough that it would be very hard to run in a truly egalitarian way - its your idea, so would you be the ‘primus inter pares’? ;-)
Honestly, It could be great - so please see me poking holes as a way to make your plan stronger.
Not the person you responded to but I have a similar plan for a company. The one hole I have a solution for I believe should be adopted by all companies: if it’s a job that isn’t your core focus, outsource. Everything from bookkeeping to janitorial staff should be an outside company (with your same ethics). I dream of a world where everyone is self-employed or part of small co-ops, and not one single company expands vertically or horizontally. Pick one thing you’re good at and do that one thing well. Everything else, give that labor to someone else. I’m looking at you, Amazon.
I’m looking at you, Amazon.
You mean that you want to copy Amazon? Since this is exactly what they have done, outsourced delivery drivers; driven to pissing in bottles, outsourced sellers; selling items at a loss to imaginary bots to get positive reviews (amazon making its cut all the same).
I shouldn’t respond… but let me guess:
The one thing that you are good at isn’t unblocking toilets, is it? No, I’ll bet you are really good at something rewarding like solving difficult math problems, or ‘consulting’ or some other rewarding job. I’m sure that you were top of your class at school, but in the real world, if you didn’t turn up, the world would keep turning just fine.
I am saying this from no moral high ground at all (I am well rewarded for what is termed a ‘bullshit job’), just pointing out that what you are saying kind of assumes that the proles want to live in your utopia, do you still expect to have a better living than the person who shovels your shit when you block the toilet? Thought so.
[edit: sorry for being such a curmudgeon - I must be having a bad day. If I’ve offended - check your idealism. Please start your ideal business - the world needs idealists… as well as people with shovels]
Absolutely not and if you think about the implications, you’d come to the same conclusion.
One of the most successful breweries in America is owned by its employees. New Belgium.
They did not crumble and fall apart because of “evil socialism”. They flourished because every single worker had a vested interest in making the business grow.
Executives wonder why their employees are so unmotivated. Give them motivation. Not pizza parties
Employee ownership would save this nation from its spiral towards indentured servitude. 60% of the population currently lives month to month. You’re telling me every single one of them is lazy? Bullshit.
The American dream has been stolen from us, it will take it back one way or another.
You can keep sucking on the nuts of billionaires pretending you will be one of them, I will fight for the working class.
No, it isn’t. Just look at their website.
Okay so apparently a corporation bought them out in 2019. Looks like we are falling one by one corporate interest.
There used to be 100 government contractors know there are 4.
There used to be dozens of Telecom providers, now there are 3
You know how many places I’ve lived where I’ve had a choice of Internet provider? 0 Functionally a monopoly
I’m so close to giving up on this country because of the greed that is tearing it apart from the inside while everyone concerns themselves with talentless celebrities, Donald Trump included
I’m done being complacent. Something has to give
There is more than 4 government contractors. I don’t even have to ask which government to assert that.
Of course there are more than four, but an enormously disproportionate amount of our tax dollars go to four of them.
20% goes to Lockheed Martin alone.
General Dynamics swallowed up all of the companies I worked for in the first half of my career.
You probably also think that because there are thousands of small farmers that they actually have any market share.
The big fish are eating the small ones and getting bigger and bigger. This is what happens when you relax antitrust enforcement. Why do you think we keep getting involved in wars we have nothing to do with? These four have raked in billions facilitating the death of our children overseas for decades
Economics and trickle down is working so great right? Republicans would drive us into slavery we gave them the reins. And yes it is political just look at Reagan and his policies and how they have affected us today
Oh look. A shifty slide from facts to ideology
Uh… no. This is exactly how people with that mentality cause companies to find ways to hire less humans and depend more on technologies.
Keep it up, you’re only asking for really bad consequences.
“if we keep talking about freedom, our masters will have even more reason to abuse us!”
Coward.
I’m thinking like a business owner. If my employees are going to demand to own my company, I’m going to fire them and find a way to permanently replace humans.
Coward, more like a realist.
Here’s a thought though, start thinking about creating your own business and stop being a wage slave.
Oh you think your the master and this it’s okay. My bad, your not a coward. Your scum. Literal human rot. Embodiment of greed and selfishness. A person like you has no place holding power over others, and in a just world you would be punished for it. Unfortunately we don’t live in a just world. We live in a world where not only are you rewarded for your greed but to the point you consider it a virtue.
Consider the morality of yourself for a moment.
As for “creating my own business”, you silly billy, I’m going into teaching. Ya know, a selfless job ment to benefit all. I live by my morals, instead of looking for ways to profit off my lack of them.
Keep on rubbing your coins together mr scrooge. See if it warms your grave someday.
You’re going into teaching? haha… Good grief.
This person is going into, “teaching”. Can’t even decipher between, “your” and “you’re”.
You’re a joke. Thanks for further solidifying why public education is complete and utter shit.
I ain’t an English teacher, and I’m actually working on that exact grammatical deficit. My bad I didn’t approach your dumbass with the same rigor I approach an essay or will with my future students. You ain’t exactly worth that time bub.
What do you think corporate shareholders expect of a publicly traded company? Especially when in most industries, labor is their number 1 expense?
