Yeah, heard about this. Sounds so fuckin’ childish and bratty. The GOP only makes sense when viewed thru the lens of a 10 year-old cry-bully.
Assuming this clears hearsay judgement (and it should, relating to his mental state at the time), it’s a MOAB.
Trump’s defense in has been an insistence that he believes he actually won, and not obstructing congress to overturn the election, but to uphold it.
In the Federal D.C. case in particular, he’s the only indicted defendant, so his only avenue to really argue his belief that he won, he’s going to have to take the stand. And that means cross examination. And that’s almost guaranteed to result in perjury.
it’s a MOAB
Um, what? A mother of all . . . ?
Bussy
I’m a dipshit and replied to the top level post again instead of TropicalDingdong’s question about how big this was.
Assuming it’s not a Voyager bug, I’m doing that a hell of a lot lately.
Massive Ordinance Air Blast/Mother Of All Bombs.
Ah, thank you so much. Every time I saw that comment in my history I was still wondering what the mother of all of it was, lol.
Assuming this clears hearsay judgement (and it should, relating to his mental state at the time)
Can you dig into this a bit further? This is what I’ve been considering (especially around the CO trial), is that like, while from an outsiders ley perspective, he clearly had the intent to overthrow the elected government of the United States, the standards of evidence in cases like this are high (and should be).
He’s been very cautious throughout his life to engage that mafioso style of speaking (wouldn’t it be great if… xyz… happened). He doesn’t strike me as a fastidious note taker. At the same time, for things like the fake electors scheme, there is only so much you can minimize the communication by. Like it clearly happened; they had them prepared. There is (or at one point was) written documentation of some of these crimes. How far can something like this actually take things?
Prefacing with “I am not a lawyer,” I’m only related to a two lawyers, two police officers, and have too many extended family friends who are both, I worked a short time in a court, and now watch/listen to too many lawyers talking on podcasts… so I’m likely the worst of the worst kind of armchair lawyer wannabe.
Hearsay is generally inadmissible as evidence used against the accused having allegedly committed a crime, because it’s second-hand information and the person effectively making the evidentiary statement isn’t the one currently testifying under oath.
I can’t simply testify that you told me that you watched Trump commit a crime, when you aren’t there to provide witness testimony.
But exceptions do apply, and in this case it would be when it comes to establishing a general intent or motive, a mental/emotional state of the accused.
I can testify that you told me Trump was angry about the election. I think there could be arguments that this testimony should be inadmissible if there is no chance for you to testify to the same, unless you were available for rebuttal or possibly involved in the crime itself, where you would feasibly be protected by the 5th amendment.
So it wouldn’t be slam dunk “Scavino told me that Trump said we are going to illegally overthrow the election” is totally inadmissible as evidence of the crime. But the testimony from Ellis of what Scavino told her, that “we” don’t care what the election outcome is, that “we” aren’t leaving, at the very least implies that “we” have an intention to defy the outcome if it isn’t in our favor. Meaning the “we” certainly aren’t staying in power purely because “we” we think we won, and have good faith reasons to believe “we” should remain.
The telegraphed defense so far for Trump has been that he believes he actually won, and this testimony is a direct rebuke of that idea. This will naturally require more corroborating testimony presented to a jury to reach “beyond a reasonable doubt” on his intent to ignore the election and stay in power, but it proves such testimony already exists.
The telegraphed defense so far for Trump has been that he believes he actually won, and this testimony is a direct rebuke of that idea. This will naturally require more corroborating testimony presented to a jury to reach “beyond a reasonable doubt” on his intent to ignore the election and stay in power, but it proves such testimony already exists.
I guess that’s where my concerns lay. Without physical evidence, I don’t know how you get to “beyond a reasonable doubt”. I don’t know, without like, actual physical records of some kind, you prove that. And yes, they stole bankers boxes of documents, and for all we know, destroyed the evidence. At the same time, these conspiracies were far reaching, and in a digital age, being confident that you’ve completely destroyed all records of a communication could be very difficult. The inference of intent from hearsay, even qualified hearsay, seems like not a great strategy.
You do that by having enough people that were nearby, or better, involved in the overall conspiracy testifying that they were operating with the knowledge that what they were doing was illegal.
“Beyond a reasonable doubt” is not “beyond the shadow of any doubt.”
If you have three or four insiders saying that Trump wanted to do X (which was an illegal act), and corroborating testimony that he was told by these lawyers, like Ellis, that the law doesn’t work that way, that this is illegal, it’s not reasonable that Trump can righteously still believe he was not committing a crime. By that point it’s “ignorance of the law” at best, which is not a defense.
Testimonies will be catered to pointing this out, and there will be plenty of arguments about the intent of text messages and emails and conversations surrounding Trump, they will ultimately establish everyone was aware that this illegal obstruction is being done knowingly and at Trump’s direction. Once you’re there, it requires an absolutely unreasonable juror to conclude he had any reason to believe be was in the right.
it’s not reasonable that Trump can righteously still believe he was not committing a crime
I suppose that puts weight on the fact that its his lawyers have flipped.
How does this rank on your big-deal-o-meter? This seems like it could speak to specific intent and may have bearing on the CO case.
But he DID leave.
… but he did.
And he is in active litigation to face the consequences…
This massive push to make Trump the big bad wolf as scary as possible to scare people into voting for Biden when they fundamentally disagree with his actions is really getting ridiculous.
Cheeto and his buffoon squad are not competent enough to be nearly as dangerous as the media is trying to scare us into believing.
Their “coup” was just walking into the capitol, literally smearing shit on the walls, and then getting locked up in prison for doing it. Really makes me believe they can end America.
Don’t get me wrong, it will be a shitty 4 years, but Biden has done this to us, and life will go on.
Weird way to minimize an attack on the country.
You are downplaying an attempted auto-coup. His actions are very real, and very dangerous and cannot be over exaggerated. Half the country is ready to crown this guy Imperator and here you are saying its blown out of proportion. Somehow our democracy survived, we won’t always be that lucky. Trump is still in front of our faces now because he has very wealthy and influential backers. Whoever they are they want him in power, and that should be sounding enough alarms for you to grasp the seriousness of this situation. He is telling us what he wants to do, don’t pretend like its no big deal.
Somehow our democracy survived
Frankly this remains to be seen…
The number of people attacking and attempted to alter America’s fundamental democratic systems in their favor is still frighteningly and disgustingly high. We are nowhere near in the clear, especially with so many knuckle-dragging morons willing to overlook the facts and undermine the truth in order to push their political agenda.
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Until the MAGA Republicans unanimously and unambiguously acknowledge Trump’s loss in 2020, American democracy remains in real, existential danger.
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Until low information voters on the center and the left unanimously and unambiguously acknowledge the real threats that fascist authoritarian movements in our country pose, American democracy remains in real, existential danger.
I really wish I could say that the only problem was the Trump people (who as of right now having Trump polling better than Biden, by the way), but the sad truth is that there are people like Melkath here who are seemingly more than happy to see an emboldened, unhinged, untethered and outwardly vindictive version of Trump rise to power once again, surrounded by even more like-minded yes-men than ever before.
Trump and the people around him made it abundantly clear to everyone that he had no intention of conceding in 2016 or 2020, even before election day. His actions and words on and after election day in 2020 made it even more obvious that he had no intention of facilitating a peaceful transition of power to any other government. Why on Earth would anyone even dare to seriously suggest that he would be willing to do so in 2028 under any circumstances?
We would truly be the world’s dumbest country to allow someone like him to take hold of power once again, especially knowing that he would be doing so with less constraints and even less intent to ever relinquish power to anyone else (Republican or Democrat, by the way). And yet here we are once again, at the start of an election year listening to dipshits and assholes on the internet (perhaps disingenuously) undermine the seriousness of the threats that we face.
The time to tolerate and humor these brazenly foolish ideas is long past, imo.
In 2024 you’re either on team Biden or team Trump, and anyone who is on Trump’s team is an enemy of democracy no matter what form of twisted bullshit rhetoric they decide to use to justify it.
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I’m sorry to say it, but you’re a bad joke.
This massive push to make Trump the big bad wolf as scary as possible to scare people into voting for Biden when they fundamentally disagree with his actions is really getting ridiculous.
Cheeto and his buffoon squad are not competent enough to be nearly as dangerous as the media is trying to scare us into believing.
To describe a first-hand account from a witness’ sworn testimony in a legal proceeding as a “massive push” or something the “media is trying to scare us into believing” shows that you have a very weak grasp on media literacy. The last thing you should be attempting to do is create narratives on behalf of Trump–he already has an army of useful idiots downplaying his fascist actions, so he doesn’t really need you.
Their “coup” was just walking into the capitol, literally smearing shit on the walls, and then getting locked up in prison for doing it.
An unsuccessful coup is still a attempted coup, just like an unsuccessful murder is still an attempted murder.
Not to mention that you’re downplaying what happened on election day, on and around January 6th, and multiple points in between and since. Here’s a small sample of actions by Trump and his allies:
- Trump and his allies call for the vote counting to stop on election day, ultimately leading to the harassment of volunteer election workers.
- Trump and his allies gain unauthorized and unsupervised access to voting machines in contested states.
- Trump and his allies organize multiple slates of fake electors in an attempt to change the outcome of elections in states that he had lost.
- Trump and his allies continuously spread lies and disinformation about the 2020 election, despite knowing internally and losing nearly 100 court cases on their demonstrably bogus claims.
- Trump and his allies discuss invoking martial law and the insurrection act to forcibly and illegally steal voting machines from contested states.
- Trump pressured Pence into overturning his election loss during the certification process, despite being told that it was illegal to do so by his own staff.
- Trump not only called for mass demonstrations on January 6th that he described as being “wild”, but he also personally ordered his armed, dangerous and violent crowd to assault the US Capitol in order to force Senate Republicans into going along with his plan to overturn the 2020 election.
I could do more, but frankly I don’t have all day to fight against stupid disingenuous bullshitters. I’m sure that you know all of this stuff already, because it’s not like it isn’t common knowledge. So I guess the real question is, “why lie about it?”.
Maybe it’s because you want Trump and his increasingly fascist supports to further take control of the United States government. But either way, it’s not Biden who is damaging the country, it’s the fascists who support Trump, and the ignorant/complicit people like you who un/knowingly empower them.
One thing is for sure, the next Trump administration is showing many signs of being more fascist, more authoritarian, more autocratic, and more dangerous than the last. And I personally don’t believe that he and the people who support him have any intention of ever allowing for a peaceful transition of power to any other democratically elected leader, based not on some kind of “lugenpresse narrative”, but purely on their own actions and words.
Just walking into the Capitol… And injuring 138 police officers, hospitalizing 15 of them.
Right.
Just walking into the Capitol… and injuring 138 police officers, hospitalizing 15 of them… in an attempt to stop the certification of a democratic election and inject multiple slates of fake electors into the process until the waters are muddied to the point where the outcome is decided by the Republican controlled House of Representatives.
Here’s an organization that studies and categorizes Coup d’État against a specific set of criteria.
Here is their statement about Jan 06.
That statement provides links to their methodology and dataset, as well as other details.
Here is an excerpt:
The Cline Center’s Coup d’État Project is the world’s largest global registry of failed and successful coups. The Cline Center defines a coup as an “organized effort to effect sudden and irregular (e.g., illegal or extra-legal) removal of the incumbent executive authority of a national government, or to displace the authority of the highest levels of one or more branches of government.” To be categorized as a coup, an event must meet the following criteria (which are detailed at greater length in the Coup d’État Project codebook):
-There must be some person or persons who initiated the coup.
-The target of the coup must have meaningful control over national policy.
-There must be a credible threat to the leaders’ hold on power.
-Illegal or irregular means must be used to seize, remove, or render powerless the target of the coup.
-It must be an organized effort.Summary
Using the Cline Center’s Coup d’État Project definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état: an organized, illegal attempt to intervene in the presidential transition by displacing the power of the Congress to certify the election. In terms of the type of coup attempt, the complex nature of this event leads it to be categorized as both an attempted auto-coup and as an attempted dissident coup, reflecting the separate activities of distinctive actors involved in the event.
I’m not saying a group of bumpkins didn’t storm the Capitol.
I am not saying that is acceptable.
I am saying that life went on (for everyone except that one woman), justice was served, and Trump doesn’t scare me enough to vote for a genocidal maniac.
Trump, the one wanting to ban Muslims, is the genocidal maniac, right? Because Biden supporting Israel is shitty, but recently he has been putting pressure for a cease-fire. I’ll take the old fart that adapts rather than the old fart who wants to shove the nation up his asshole and clench.
Hold up. Let’s be 100% real about the situation in Gaza for a minute: it takes both parties to arrange a ceasefire.
Those parties of course being the Israeli government (still regrettably under the impotent-feeling, “security”-focused war monger Netanyahu, by the way) and Hamas (a group that was founded on antisemitic genocide, who recently waged the largest mass killing of innocent Jews since the Holocaust, who still holds somewhere upwards of 400 innocent hostages somewhere in Gaza, and who have themselves rejected the idea of a peaceful solution to the current situation).
That’s right–both the Netanyahu administration and Hamas represent one-time democratically elected but largely corrupt regimes who ran on their extreme and staunchly militant approaches to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They both did things to prop each other up and to push the region towards militant extremism. They both wanted a fight, and it’s not really a surprise that a fight is exactly what we’ve ended up with.
As America is a key ally to Israel, obviously the Biden administration has a lot of potential (though not infinite, as we’ve seen time and again) to pressure the Netanyahu admin. But they certainly don’t have enough sway to get Israel to give up their counter-assault on Hamas, and especially to take back the hundreds of civilian hostages who are being held in Gaza. Furthermore, the countries that have sway over Hamas (like Iran, Russia to name two big ones) have made no attempt to get Hamas to back down, and in fact all signs show that they have been helping Hamas and cheering them on.
Kushner-esque naivety and ignorance aside, there is no push-button solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict today and there never has been. They are clearly further from peace than they have been for decades, and neither side is willing or ready to back down. A ceasefire is not on the cards, and it won’t be until Israel and Hamas come to some kind of agreement.
The people who understand this simple and sad truth are just being realistic. People want to complain about Biden, but at the same time why is nobody acknowledging that his position on this is currently no different than that of Bernie Sanders? Are people going to sit here with a straight face and call Bernie a “genocidal maniac” too?
Almost mobody likes what they’re seeing in Gaza (other than Putin and Iran), but anybody who says that there’s a American-oriented, simple, unilateral, turn-key solution to stopping the violence is just plainly talking out of their ass.
This is the nuance I came to this site for, thank you.
You’re obviously not in the deportation category,…yet.
Didn’t the trump cucks kill a cop too?
Not that I recall.
One sad woman got 1 tapped and they scattered like cockroaches.
Link it if I’m wrong.
Nah why don’t you do your own research. I got better things to do than do research for some lazy troll arguing in bad faith. Please do LSD or mushrooms to gain empathy and become a real human being who cares about others.
So my recollection is correct.
And also, the irony of someone telling me to get empathy to convince me into supporting a genocide like them. Height of irony.
Your recollection is incorrect, one officer died the following night as a result of his injuries. Two others also killed themselves within a week of it.
Also where the fuck is anyone discussing genocide here? Nevermind, I see you’re using Biden’s position on Israel/Palestine as a shitty rhetorical deflection.
I’m saying that you’re drunk.
This is your reaction to “Man almost overthrows centuries of peaceful transition of power, stopped only by a few individuals who refused to cooperate”? That he’s not actually dangerous at all?
You are the reason they put warning labels on everything now.
Have you heard of the Civil War?
Brother. We ain’t even close to that place.
Americans are too fat and scared.
“It’s not bad if it’s not literally civil war”
What the heck?
Please read about the militia movement.
History is full of idiots that were looked down upon as too stupid to be really dangerous that, when they got power, decided to make themselves the smartest guys in the room by killing all the “smart” people.
You don’t have to be competent to overthrow a government and rein in tyranny. You just have to be able to inflict violence and suffering.
Mr. Delusional Downplay Puppet of the Year awards goes to this guy.
Take a good, long, look at history and realize how absurdly simple it is for people in the right environment to sieze control of a society. It’s not nearly what you clearly imagine it to be nor are the perpetrators required to be smart by any means.
This massive push to make Trump the big bad wolf as scary as possible to scare people into voting for Biden when they fundamentally disagree with his actions is really getting ridiculous.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Biden. It has everything to do with Trump being completely unfit for any kind of public office.
If you believe they can’t do damage then you’re an idiot. They sabotaged the postal service to degrade voting from home during the pandemic, they separated families, they had real plans to arrest critics, they sent in anonymous federal agents to stir shit during protests and picked up people from the street info unmarked vans, and those J6 protestors had real plans to execute politicians.
Are you a moron or what? WTF are you on about?
