But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Of course Trump is worse.
Now let’s not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let’s not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn’t that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu’s genocide because they’re worried it makes Biden look bad.
And let’s not pretend that the US isn’t a two-party system.
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
And I’m voting for Biden.
No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
Answer: absolutely not.
Your comment should read “One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit”…
But it doesn’t.
This whole thing of “you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side” thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn’t fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you’ve been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn’t. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
Removed by mod
My agenda is to see more honest discussions. It is not a hidden agenda. I am very open about it. I, and many other people, honestly believe that Joe is doing a horrific job. I also honestly believe that Trump would do a horrific job. I am disgusted by the fact that nobody who could potentially make it into the White House has shown anything but complete and utter contempt for the innocent lives in Gaza.
I absolutely refuse to pretend that Biden is great for Gaza in some pathetic attempt to trick idiots who somehow haven’t paid attention into thinking that Biden isn’t floating in am Olympic sized pool of children’s blood. I’m not saying Trump will do any better, and I’m not saying I will vote for Trump. All I am saying is that we will all be better off if vocal people like yourself were to at least try to have honest dialogs. No strawman, no hidden agenda, just plain, honest discussion. The thing that has offended you so deeply can be summed up in a single word. Honesty.
I’m happy to engage in nuanced, fair, complex discourse about US politics with anyone who wants to have it, and I have criticisms of my party.
Do tell. What criticisms do you have of the Democratic Party?
That is not at all what’s happening. The world is much less black and white than you think.
I’m not campaigning for Trump.
Removed by mod
Removed, civility.
@Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied.
Now compare your fanfic to what actually happened.
I guess you’re conveniently forgetting about yesterday where you made an absolute fool of yourself and got caught lying.
Btw I’m STILL waiting on that answer.
Oh I know. Trust me, I don’t engage with these people with any illusions. There’s no arguing with the agitprop element here. The point of responding at all is just to identify them to the general public.
Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
I did not mention Biden’s opinion regarding the protestors.
Yes, that’s why it’s important someone did mention it.
Yes, it’s vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn’t say.
You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don’t say.
deleted by creator
What do you want us to do come November about it?
Vote for Biden, of course. There’s no better choice, to my utter dismay.
See this is what drives me crazy though. I always see people write these big critiques of Biden, often even implying he’s basically the same as Trump, but they never go so far as to say “but pull the lever for Biden anyway.“ It’s why there is such a distaste for the endless critiques on lemmy of Biden by many of us. Because there is kind of this implication that you either shouldn’t vote or you should at least not vote for Biden. Some folks like you, and I’m not saying you do this, get so angry about anybody who says “vote for Biden anyway.” They act like we are unable to critique him. But really a lot of us are just coming from a place of pragmatism, and we get worried because the critiques need to close with at least something like “but do not vote Trump. The election is at our doorstep. Vote Biden.”
Real change won’t occur within the next few months. We need to stop Trump.
Real change won’t occur within the next few months.
Congratulations.
If you’re just going to start being flippant and unproductive when I’m trying to have a real discussion with you then we can just stop here. Have a good rest of your weekend.
Sorry. I’m coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
So what are you going to do about it?
Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I’ve said this more than a few times already.
Let’s pretend about that world…
As trump gasses these folks…
But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don’t support the protesters are quite rare.
let’s ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don’t know what to tell you.
you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe “Im a Zionist” Biden gives them?
If that’s your best option, that’s what you have to do.
This is how logic and critical thinking work.
Can you provide a better alternative?
I’d say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
She’s not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
Do you mean russian asset Jill Stein?
she’s not a russian asset. this is libel.
You talking about that one photo? You wont believe who else has been to Russia several times.
The “Best Option” placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
2016:
Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%2020:
Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
So genocide vs more genocide. I know which one I’m voting for.
Biden
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
Okay. How is trump better for human rights? Or… anything.
Take your time.
In what way did I even argue anything was better with trump?
And just makes it worse when Biden is doing some of his polices.
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Yeah in response to
But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Bidens literally continuing trumps immigration policy and trying to get even more right wing immigration policy in.
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Do you think pointing out how Biden is bad can only mean a person in pro trump?
Again where did say anything about trump good?
I think we all knew this of President Drink Bleach, and we saw how he tear-gassed protesters that time when he held a Bible visibly for a photo shoot.
Trump’s issue, I optimistically believe, is that those who wrote “Uncommitted” during the primaries and those who point out the ongoing genocide will still vote for Biden - because everyone has already correctly assumed what this article is stating.
Nonetheless, it’s reaffirming to have confirmation. Thank you for posting this.
Tear-gassed a priest with those protestors as well just fyi.
The important part is to align him with Biden and shit all over everything.
It doesn’t matter if there is a republican giving full throated support to apartheid… if a democrat even seems icky that’s more important.
But what is Genocide Joe going to do to earn MY vote.
South Park turned a whole fucking generation into “but both sides suck” idiots.
He’s not gonna be Trump. Got my vote.
Biden is required to ship weapons to Israel by law. He is doing what he can to limit Israel’s carnage. Remember the USS Liberty? Israel doesn’t care about anyone other than Israel.
Thank you for that link. It will be helpful.
A lot of people are unaware of Jonathan Pollard too.
Yup.
Would I like a better candidate? Of course. Do I want to cause untold suffering to myself and the people I love? Nope.
Bingo.
Whatever “genocide person” does for you is irrelevant. You are someone desperately asking for others to solve your problems. At worst the rest of us will solve your problems, otherwise you might do it yourself but I have my doubts…
This comment section is nothing but crabs in a bucket. This is why rightoids have people banning masks and forming armies of idiots while the left toils against each other. Being unified like the right has benefits but is against our ideals. We need to find a way to compromise with each other to get the most important things we can agree on done.
And yet the same people will hold their intelligence and principals in high regard.
Meanwhile, the Right keeps stacking their deck by playing tribal games with emotions.
When the "scorecard " is tallied, you’ll notice intelligence and principals don’t count for much if they’re not being represented.
All I’m looking for is spears pointed in the right direction at this point. This is it. Right here, right now. We either vote in Trump and lose all democracy or we bite our tongue and use another Biden term to get ranked choice. We can no longer afford to kick the can down the road.
Centrists will never compromise leftward.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment. The middle is a larger and more reliable voter base.
But, I think that’s going to change over the next few decades. Progressives and further left people are becoming an increasingly important and large voting bloc. Numerically it will soon make sense to compromise leftwards to get more votes than compromising with the center. We’re just not there yet.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment.
If they’re a large enough group to blame when ya lose, they’re a large enough group to compromise with.
I don’t disagree there, but that’s also why I don’t believe in blaming the left nor attributing losses to them. It isn’t a large enough group to have that much sway yet.
From a rhetorical perspective I agree – if politicians are willing to blame the left, they should be willing to work with them. Like you say, it’s logically inconsistent to blame them but also think they aren’t worth compromising with.
I also think the “rebelliousness” of leftists is overstated. I firmly believe most of them vote with Democrats so that there is harm reduction. I think a lot of the detractors are just a loud online minority. I strongly suspect for instance the “don’t threaten me with the supreme court” crowd was not even close to most of the progressives who voted in 2016. More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
It’s more than that. Clinton supporters started a PAC to get McCain elected when Obama won the nomination. And they’re the same people who keep saying “blue no matter who.”
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people. I think at the end of the day these two extremes are a dismissible collective group. Most of us can truly cooperate and agree on most things, and find the loud minority repulsive.
Along those lines, I appreciate that you have been consistently reasonable in discussions and arguments. Your criticisms are well founded in evidence and you show that it’s possible to be critical and displeased with Biden while still voting for him. That’s a level of intellectual nuance I wish I saw more of.
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people.
And yet in 2008, Obama won despite their efforts at sabotage. To hear centrists talk about it, anyone who so much as thought a positive thought regarding Bernie Sanders is solely responsible for Clinton’s loss in 2016.
We should be able to safely ignore the pampered, spoiled centrists who threw a massive tantrum when they didn’t get 100% of everything they wanted in 2008, and ignore progressives at our peril. We do the opposite.
That is so messed up. Makes Biden look quite reasonable on the Gaza issue in comparison.
Trump legit wants to nuke Gaza.
Biden isn’t handling the situation well, but Trump wound be orders of magnitude worse.
This is what people have been trying to say. Biden isn’t doing a great job, but Trump would be infinitely worse. If you actually care about the Palestinians instead of scoring political points, there’s a very clear choice who to vote for.
Where in the exact fuck does diaper don think he’s deporting US citizens to?
Hopefully a western European country.
Fun fact, if you’re targeted for deportation you can always voluntarily self deport. So if they create a diaspora there’s going to be 3 major populations of expats. Mexico, where the administration will dump them. Canada where the people who could only afford a road trip went. And the EU where people who can afford a plane ticket went.
He’ll put them up in one of his failing hotels then bill them for it.
I would like to be deported to New Zealand please!
It’s funny how this headline is exclusively about what Trump would do to pro-palestinian demonstrators, which comports completely with what he was doing to or wanted to do to George Floyd protestors, and yet the comments are mostly about… Joe Biden?
Stay classy, Lemmy.
I called that one a couple of weeks ago.
Do people like Trump because he aligns with their politics or because in a simple way he expresses American identities of being irreverent, ‘straight talking’ and entrepreneurial? Just a thought as an outsider.
Lemmy “leftists:” good thing it was never about the Palestinians.
“Leftists” on Lemmy will praise everything about China. I don’t think real socialism is supposed to be making that many billionaires, so it must be something else they admire there.
Marx always knew there would be a transition from capitalism to socialism.
None of these measures abolishes capitalism straight away; each constitutes a partial intervention by the state in the economic mechanism of capitalism, and only in the totality, and over time, are they deemed to undermine capitalism completely. Thus, for instance, the measure ‘a vigorously graduated income tax’ assumes that under the dictatorship of the proletariat there would still be marked differences in incomes – that the capitalist would not be expropriated at a stroke. ‘During the revolution, the gigantic increase in the scope of taxation may serve as an attack on private ownership; yet even in such a case taxation must be a stepping stone to fresh revolutionary measures, otherwise there will be a return to the erstwhile bourgeois conditions.’
I haven’t read all of the comments, but here’s a fact I haven’t seen mentioned: The sociopathic narcissist doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Palestine, true, but he also doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Israel. He cares about himself, and will say or so anything to gain support and acclaim. He’s making this threat solely because it plays well to his donors.
THAT’S the scary part. If the authoritarians didn’t exist in our midst, he’d be a middle manager somewhere, instead of a contender for the office of President, again. THAT’S what we need to address, and the history of the past 30 or so years shows that getting a Democrat in office doesn’t fix anything. Electing Biden won’t make the authoritarians go away, which is why we’re back with as rematch of the 2020 election, with our democratic institutions four years weaker, and the vulnerable people in our society more scared and more under threat.
Who’s going to beat them in 2028?
They’re going to be dead or drinking fruit puree from a straw in 2028 both are at the end of their intellectual lives and being president heavily shortens what energy you have left. Neither will be doing much at all in 4 years. It’s why you should be looking at who the VPs are.
Well, my whole point here is that DJT is a symptom of the much deeper disease. It won’t be him in 2028. It will be another authoritarian, and we can count on that.
O absolutely, I don’t see the repubs going away from the continued drive right and unfortunately because of this, i don’t see the dems moving to a more progressive platform.
I can’t wait to be deported back to Michigan.
Convincing people that no matter who you vote for, we’ll keep paying for the genocide is not a good strategy.
All that will do is make empathetic people not vote, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
Dems can’t run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
Dem voters want to hear about what Dems will do to help.
It is very very hard to change that, because it’s literally how our brains work.
Dems tend to have larger prefrontal cortex (empathy and critical thinking) while Republicans have waaaay more amygdala activity (fear, flight/fright/freeze).
What appeals to one group, doesn’t appeal to the other. But both groups cater to conservatives and hope they can guilt trip high empathy voters.
https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.16030051
The people running the Dem party need to learn some fucking empathy and realize just because deep down they’re closer to conservatives than liberals, and that voters aren’t motivated by the same shit.
I mean, we could just replace party leaders with empathetic people who understand their voters, but I’m not holding my breath.
Did you seriously just turn trump talking about deporting us citizens because they are saying something he doesn’t like into “but here is why the democrats suck”?
Democrats do need a clearer distinction between themselves and Republicans on this issue.
If the Dems only standard is:
Not trump
While I agree it’s good to at least maintain that, it’s not enough to get the votes need to beat Trump.
It barely worked when he was in office, why wouldn’t 24 be more like 16 than 20?
I don’t think people understand that when the candidates are as bad as Biden and trump, that being an incumbent is a disadvantage.
If you think people want Biden as president, you’re not paying attention
I think there is very much an argument for working to get Democrats we actually WANT to vote for down ballot so that we actually have someone “good” in 4 years.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment. And the fact that you want to turn this into an attack on the Democrats makes me REALLY suspicious of what your actual motives are.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment
This is Trump’s 3rd election…
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
If all that matters is beating trump like they’ve been saying for over a decade, why dont we run a candidate that’s popular with voters?
Why run an old conservative just because trump is worse?
You know this isn’t the norm right? Do you not remember Bill and Obama’s first campaigns?
That’s the type of campaign we need, otherwise there’s a good chance Biden loses.
You can be mad at it, it you can accept it. But Biden isn’t popular due to his words and actions
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
Because he’s the sitting President and leader of the Democratic party. I don’t understand why this simple fact is so hard to understand.
There’s only one person who can decide Biden shouldn’t be the nominee and that’s Biden. See Johnson in '68. Johnson chose to step aside.
Obama was HEAVILY criticized for his, quite frankly excessive, use of drones in assassinations.
And Clinton had a LONG history of controversies even before he ran for office.
Regardless, Biden is the incumbent. Replacing him is the Democrats saying that they have no faith in the president.
Again, there is a lot of reason to discuss how to salvage the Democratic Party. But not really one where the opposition is talking about illegally deporting protesters.
Keep this up and people will assume you are just a dumbass tankie who is regurgitating Russian and CCP talking points.
They were young and charismatic…
No one said they were perfect but they were popular with voters.
Biden isn’t young, and he’s not charismatic. So he’s not popular with voters.
Are you forgetting how close 2020 was? Don’t be fooled when vote totals go up, they always go up with population. But even to get trump actively out of office, Biden pulled an embarrassing percent of eligible voters.
This election he’s less popular, and frankly he didn’t really have any room to spare.
You’re talking about this like reality matters, not perception.
And next time, at least put your insults at the front, I wouldn’t have typed all that if I’d seen it.
So all people who say then wont vote Biden because of Gaza, do you see know that Trump is even worse?
