You may have noticed a distinct lack of return2ozma. This is due to their admitting, in a public comment, that their engagement here is in bad faith:

I’m sure there will be questions, let me see if I can address the most obvious ones:

  1. Can I still post negative stuff about Biden?

Absolutely! We have zero interest in running an echo chamber. However, if ALL you’re posting is negative, you may want to re-think your priorities. You get out of the world what you put into it and all that.

  1. Why now?

Presumption of innocence. It may be my own fault, but I do try to think the best of people, and even though they were posting negative articles, they weren’t necessarily WRONG. Biden’s poll numbers, particularly in minority demographics ARE in the shitter. They are starting to get better, but he still has a hell of a hill to climb.

  1. Why a 30 day temp ban and not a permanent ban?

The articles return2ozma shared weren’t bad, faked, or from some wing-nut bias site like “beforeitsnews.com”, they were legitimate articles from established and respected news agencies, pointing out the valid problems Biden faces.

The problem was ONLY posting the negatives, over and over and then openly admitting that dishonest enagement is their purpose.

Had they all been bullshit articles? It would not have taken anywhere near this much time to lay the ban and it would have been permanent.

30 days seems enough time for them to re-think their strategery and come back to engage honestly.

tl;dr - https://youtu.be/C6BYzLIqKB8#t=7s

  • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
    2·
    4 months ago

    I am mocking the essentialist and attitude that suggests [voting] is the only thing that matters

    those who seek to enforce support for a candidate and discourage dissent

    discouraging the propagation of news coverage that is unflattering to that candidate to a point that is threatening to consensus opinion

    launching crusades against those who are insufficiently emphatic about the need to vote

    I just don’t think any of these things are happening. I think you’re mounting this grand challenge against an enemy that 99% doesn’t exist on Lemmy, and the people who actually are reading your messages are in a very different place than you’re describing here. When they say “yes Gaza sucks please can we get a better president in the future but in the meantime also Trump is 10 times worse for Gaza among many other things so let’s not elect him, also let’s go to the Palestine protest this Saturday” and you scream in their face “GENOCIDE JOE, GENOCIDE JOE, DON’T TRY TO SILENCE MY DISSENT” you’re producing no benefit for leftism in this country.

    If you wanted to go the DNC and start yelling at them about support for Israel and tepid marijuana reform, then sure. That sounds fine to me, that would sound productive (because I think there you would encounter some discouragement of any “dissent” like anti Israel sentiment).

    To drive progress we must sow discontent against the status quo, that much has always been clear.

    Do you think that the Communists in 1932 who were fighting the SPD, instead of Hitler, accomplished progress by sowing discontent against the status quo? Certainly that’s what they were doing, just my assessment of their success level is pretty limited, since they almost all were killed.

    • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.socialEnglish
      21·
      4 months ago

      I just don’t think any of these things are happening

      Lmao, I mean… Disagree? Look, it’s right here even

      When they say “yes Gaza sucks please can we get a better president in the future (lol don’t bother me right now i’m busy) but in the meantime also Trump is 10 times worse(electoral essentialism) for Gaza among many other things so let’s not elect him, also let’s go to the Palestine protest this Saturday(what about right here and now? why does that seem to be intentionally left out here)” and you scream in their face “GENOCIDE JOE, GENOCIDE JOE, DON’T TRY TO SILENCE MY DISSENT”(lmao what do you think a protest is?) you’re producing no benefit for leftism in this country.

      Fuckin… Look man, if you don’t see a problem in just that first sentence I don’t think you’re trying.

      I think we’ve run this line of argumentation through, we’ve circled back to some of the stuff we started with and frankly your effort here is clearly declining. As fun as this was I really don’t feel like pulling references from earlier in the conversation. And holy hell, we’ve had this argument before, don’t you remember?

      Do you think that the Communists in 1932 who were fighting the SPD, instead of Hitler, accomplished progress by sowing discontent against the status quo?

      I’m sorry lol, I’m just not interested in having this conversation again. You’ll say ‘the SPD split the vote because they were too stubborn to join the KPD’ and then i’ll say ‘sure but the SPD was reacting to the same conditions that cultivated the NSDAP in the first place’ and then you’ll say 'i agree but stopping the nazis was more important ’ and then i’ll say ‘but they didn’t stop them, they let them in, and also even if they had if they didn’t address the conditions that lead to the NSDAP then they wouldn’t ever really stop them so the KPD should have joined the SPD’ and then you’ll say ‘yea I agree with that but they had the majority so they didn’t’ and i’ll say ‘and they didn’t stop the nazis, I thought we were trying to learn from this example not rationalize what ended up happening’

      LMAO though at you claiming i’m being overdramatic and then immediately turn around and compare my light agitation to helping the nazis rise to power. Holy shit did that conversation devolve quickly.

      • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
        1·
        4 months ago

        I just don’t think any of these things are happening

        Lmao, I mean… Disagree? Look, it’s right here even

        So to deal with the four bullet points one by one in more detail:

        • I am very confident that I never suggested that voting was the only thing that mattered. Someone saying that voting does matter is in no way saying that it’s the only thing that matters. I think you will be hard pressed to find even a single comment on Lemmy saying that voting is the only thing that matters.
        • I don’t think I am discouraging all dissent. I give vocal dissent to the Biden administration on Israel, as does the vast majority on Lemmy. You could maybe say that I’m trying to “enforce support” by presenting my logic in favor of voting for him in general, but I’ve also posted articles from Ralph Nader explaining how to withhold voting in order to put pressure on Democrats to produce better outcomes and said that I think that’s a good thing to do. My main objection to the “I’ll never vote for Biden” viewpoint is that it enables a 10 times worse outcome and does nothing to create the better-than-Biden outcome that you seem like you’re claiming you want – but I am not demanding that people support Biden or else. I think we both want better outcomes than Biden, and we are holding a discussion about how we could get them.
        • I do discourage dissemination of coverage that is unflattering to Biden, if I think it’s dishonest – but the issue is the dishonesty, not the unflattering. When it seems honest (e.g. when it pertains to Israel) I encourage it, I post it myself, again as does the majority on Lemmy.
        • I don’t launch any crusade (even accepting that framing for typing a comment on the internet) against anyone who’s insufficiently emphatic. If someone’s actively hostile to the idea of voting in this election, then yes I’ll disagree with them sometimes strongly and explain why, but that is allowed, yes? Almost everyone on the internet will sometimes “launch a crusade” against viewpoints they disagree with, by that definition.

        I get what you’re saying in breaking down that paragraph of mine, and I can respond to what you’re saying about it if you want me to, but I feel like I need to point out that in my eyes not a single one of those bullet points is in it, or anywhere near it.

        You said earlier “Most people who share my perspective have long since stopped trying to argue anything in good faith at all with centrists.” I’m gonna be honest, I have reached that same point with a lot of the lemmy.ml hivemind, and this is why. You are wildly mischaracterizing what I actually think, to the point where you’re saying things I strongly disagree with (e.g. voting is the only thing that matters, any dissent against Biden is forbidden) and then attributing them to me.

        The conversation I would like to have with you is, we need better outcomes than Biden, how do we get there. It is frustrating and pointless to have to over and over again have that much more productive conversation be recast as, I am supporting Biden no matter what and squashing any dissent against him and actively hostile to anything better than him, and then for me to have to try to explain that that’s not accurate and be lectured about the contents of my own mind and my own opinions, and have an extended debate about it where I’m apparently not allowed to the be the authority on what I think and what my opinions are.

        Surely that makes sense? Or no?