Certain parts of the media/political establishment certainly tried to paint him that way, but really he was only guilty of not being hawkish enough on Russia.
Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but in the beginning there was a potential diplomatic resolution on the table if the US and NATO were willing to back off Ukraine. Support for joining NATO was always mixed in Ukraine anyway - Before the war, less than half of Ukrainians wanted it.
And who says the war will be endless? That’s another Russian talking-point intending to sow defeatism.
Russia’s full-scale armed attack on Ukraine, which is about to enter its third year with no end in sight, continues to cause serious and widespread human rights violations, destroying lives and livelihoods
and stated that over 30,000 civilians have already died. A diplomatic solution three years ago could have possibly prevented all that.
Whew, lots of half-truths and misinformation to unpack here, but I take it the gishgallop is the intent. Perhaps you should consider a ceasefire now because this argument will never end and you will slowly hemorrhage down-votes.
For starters, since you distinguish yourself from “people in the West,” I’m curious from where you reside? People from the West don’t normally say, “People in the west.”
NATO is primarily a defensive organization with a voluntary membership. Its bolstering is a direct reflection of the outside aggressive risks. In fact, prior to Putin’s invasion NATO was largely collecting dust. To be clear, Russia could just as easily reinstitute the Warsaw Pact – but the problem is nobody wants to join because there is no legitimate risk of NATO suddenly attacking a sovereign peaceful and stable nation. “nAtO EXpAnSioNism” is therefore utterly irrelevant and in fact, Russia is invoking a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Jn before pointing to fringe outlier incidents that are contextually much more complicated, or events where Russia could’ve vetoed but permitted on the UNSC).
As for far right neo-nazi groups, pro-tip: Azov doesn’t account for even 1% of the total UAF. Talk about pointing to outliers. But I’m sure Zelenskyy – who is Jewish and whose ancestors were in the Holocaust – is really neo-nazi… Just stop and think about it for a second :)
Let’s not forget that Putin has since backpedaled on the Budest Memorandum and like Hitler invading Poland, invaded a sovereign nation under the false pretenses of protecting ethnic groups. How awfully convenient.
Thus far you are drinking the Russia Vodka. I encourage you to stop being so gullibly duped.
Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but in the beginning there was a potential diplomatic resolution on the table if the US and NATO were willing to back off Ukraine.
Incorrect. What Putin actually stated was that so long as Ukraine didn’t join NATO, then he wouldn’t attack. Ukraine pledged to not join NATO, and yet Putin attacked them anyway. But you know, it sure is funny how all those nations under the NATO banner HAVEN’T been attacked by Russia. It’s almost like… That’s kind of the… Point of NATO? Golly!
Russia is using second-hand ammunitions from North Korea that are blowing up in the faces of Russian troops. Russia is seeking help from 2-bit nations like Iran, and sure, some help from China. But China’s economy is wholly dependent on its economic relations with USA, and so will not overextend.
Russia itself has an economy smaller than California. Aid will continue to Ukraine and Ukraine can easily out-pace Russia. After all, the smaller Soviet-Afghan War brought down a stronger USSR.
“No End in Sight” doesn’t mean endless war. People enter tunnels for which they cannot see the end; but that doesn’t mean it’s endless…
So I repeat what was dodged; What will Corbyn say and do when Ukraine commits to a ceasefire, loses 17% of its landmass, allows Russia to regroup its forces, and strikes again?
I took the time to explain a nuanced alternative viewpoint and support it with reliable sources. It’s pretty unfair to just dismiss it as a gish gallop or misinformation.
I don’t have time to sit down and fully respond to your points now, but hopefully I’ll have time later today.
I do appreciate sources, but you should know better by now that the majority of these points have been thoroughly debunked.
Instead of meandering on this wild goose-chase, why don’t you just respond with the two most relevant things:
(1) You said yourself, “Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but–”
NO BUTS. That’s IT. Russia is IN THE WRONG.
(2) How do you ensure a tyrant doesn’t regroup under a ceasefire and strike again after he gained a prize? In what realm do you believe dictators just suddenly stop without being smacked down? Did Hitler stop after he got Poland?
No argument from me. I wasn’t condoning the Russian invasion so much as explaining what Russia’s grievances were.
How do you ensure a tyrant doesn’t regroup under a ceasefire and strike again after he gained a prize?
It was not Putin’s intention to stay in Ukraine for long and the war has proven to be very costly. What he really wanted was to show the world that he would stand up to what he saw as the bullying of NATO, the EU, and the US.
A diplomatic solution that would have given Putin a chance to save face while also ensuring a ceasefire would have likely been enough for him, since he knew that Russia didn’t have the military strength to beat NATO and Euro forces in an outright ground war. This, incidentally, is why I don’t buy the direct comparison to Hitler, who actually had both the will and the military / economic might to take over Europe.
As to the very reasonable question of how: One suggestion I remember liking the sound of was the idea to establish a de-militarized zone along the Russian-Ukrainian border in the contested Donetsk-Luhansk region under the joint supervision of Kiyv, Moscow and the European Union.
Either way, I’m not saying it would have definitely worked out, but it seemed to me that not enough effort was given to trying to find a relatively peaceful alternative to a war that was always going to last years and costs tens of thousands of lives.
Thanks for the response. As a hypothetical: If we could go back in time, was there ever a point you believe the world or specific nations should’ve reached out to Hitler to negotiate a ceasefire and to let him have whatever piece of land he gained at that point in time? What are the long-term consequences of permitting such blitzes for territorial control only to be slapped on the wrist and permitting said tyrant to remain in power?
The problem with peace is that it’s not without precedent; and that precedent is to say, “the bully gets rewarded.” Ultimately, isn’t it the victim who has every right to decide how much they’re willing to bleed to fight back against the bully? Hence why every voice from NATO has been, “it’s up to Ukraine to decide for how long they wish to continue this war.”
At this point I don’t believe Ukraine is desperate enough to take that bargain. I think they know the wind is in their sails. I also think both sides are holding their breath and long-term decision-making based on the outcome of the US Presidential election. If things somehow went very south for Ukraine and they were at risk of losing significantly more territory (not a +1% gain) and Trump gets reelected and the alliance fragments, then perhaps they’d try to negotiate such a DMZ on the condition that they also get into NATO to ensure Russia will not re-arm and attack refreshed.
If things somehow went very south for Ukraine and they were at risk of losing significantly more territory (not a +1% gain) and Trump gets reelected and the alliance fragments, then perhaps they’d try to negotiate
Shouldn’t it be obvious that at that point, Russian high command would see no point in negotiating much of anything? The best time for Ukraine to negotiate and sue for peace is when they have the initiative due to some technical/strategic innovation that leads to short term battlefield success (at least until the Russians adapt). The gains following the introduction of HIMARS back in 22 are one example. But himars is a child’s toy compared to real military innovation, which was already done in 1945 and we’ve been living in low key terror ever since.
But besides jokes about letting Ukraine have nukes again, I cannot see them ever winning a conventional war of attrition. They simply lack the manpower.
“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. “We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”
Corbyn gave the interview on Al Mayadeen, a Beirut-based TV channel that has carried pro-Russia reporting since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”
He added: “This war is disastrous for the people of Ukraine, for the people of Russia, and for the safety and security of the whole world, and therefore there has to be much more effort put into peace.”
He is critical of supplying arms and not looking for a peaceful solution, but that is not calling for a withdrawal of Aid despite the Guardian’s framing.
The second is from 2014 in which he says:
Russia has gone way beyond its legal powers to use bases in the Crimea. Sending unidentified forces into another country is clearly a violation of that country’s sovereignty.
Still, the hypocrisy of the West remains unbelievable. NATO has sought to expand since the end of the cold war. It has increased its military capability and expenditure. It operates way beyond its original 1948 area and its attempt to encircle Russia is one of the big threats of our time.
We have marched against wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya. We should oppose any foreign military intervention in Ukraine, as that would only succeed in that country reliving its traumatic past as a battleground where Russia and Western Europe vie for supremacy.
Nowhere in that second article does he say Ukraine should cede Crimea, he just gives a factual account of if being transferred from the Russian to the Ukrainian SSR. I’m really not seeing any simping for Putin here.
To be clear, I dont agree with Corbyn’s stance personally, I believe Russia is an expansionist imperialist power than needs to be stopped by force now that it has overstepped the line and launched a military invasion of a neighbor. But having a different view (as he does does that more effort should be put onto brokering a peace deal) not equate to being a patsy for a dictator.
Translation for #1: He’s telling them to give up because resistance is futile. Every conflict in history could find a peaceful solution if the oppressed simply gave up at the first sign of trouble with the oppressors. Clearly, that tends to be a losing strategy.
Translation for #2:
As for the Crimea where Russia is now moving in, it has historically been separate from Ukraine. It was a theatre of war between Western Europe and Russia during the 1850s, a fact which should be a warning to us today. Then, as now, empires fought for space and influence. Its Tartar population was treated disgracefully by Stalin, and wholesale deportation followed the end of World War II.
Eventually many [Russians] returned to the Crimea and they now make up an eighth of the population. Most of the rest are Russian speakers who came there during the Soviet period.
Obviously, without question, establishing a finders-keepers narrative.
I’m sorry but I do not buy either argument. It does not detract from the notion that Corbyn is trying to tell the defender, the victim, how they should be willing to fight back and how much they should be willing to lose.
I just want to know if Corbyn would volunteer for the front-line should Russia simply regroup following a ceasefire and attack again.
Certain parts of the media/political establishment certainly tried to paint him that way, but really he was only guilty of not being hawkish enough on Russia.
He was always in favor of a ceasefire and a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine conflict instead of perpetuating an endless war.
So… Touting the Russian narrative.
Anyone who’s been following the Ukraine conflict from the start knows this is a Russian talking-point.
And who says the war will be endless? That’s another Russian talking-point intending to sow defeatism.
What will Corbyn say and do when Ukraine commits to a ceasefire, loses 17% of its landmass, allows Russia to regroup its forces, and strikes again?
The Russia/Ukraine conflict is a lot more complex than people in the West generally think.
You won’t hear this often in mainstream media but NATO expansionism and the involvement of neo-nazi, far right paramilitary groups in the Maidan revolution in Ukraine, along with US State Department involvement, were legitimate grievances for Russia. (There’s a great interview with a Ukrainian sociologist here that I think explains things in a fairly even handed way).
Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but in the beginning there was a potential diplomatic resolution on the table if the US and NATO were willing to back off Ukraine. Support for joining NATO was always mixed in Ukraine anyway - Before the war, less than half of Ukrainians wanted it.
Russia’s resources are vast and they are supported by China. Ukraine is backed by the deep pockets of NATO. Over half a million troops on both sides have been killed (edit: or wounded). A recent UN report said:
and stated that over 30,000 civilians have already died. A diplomatic solution three years ago could have possibly prevented all that.
Whew, lots of half-truths and misinformation to unpack here, but I take it the gishgallop is the intent. Perhaps you should consider a ceasefire now because this argument will never end and you will slowly hemorrhage down-votes.
For starters, since you distinguish yourself from “people in the West,” I’m curious from where you reside? People from the West don’t normally say, “People in the west.”
NATO is primarily a defensive organization with a voluntary membership. Its bolstering is a direct reflection of the outside aggressive risks. In fact, prior to Putin’s invasion NATO was largely collecting dust. To be clear, Russia could just as easily reinstitute the Warsaw Pact – but the problem is nobody wants to join because there is no legitimate risk of NATO suddenly attacking a sovereign peaceful and stable nation. “nAtO EXpAnSioNism” is therefore utterly irrelevant and in fact, Russia is invoking a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Jn before pointing to fringe outlier incidents that are contextually much more complicated, or events where Russia could’ve vetoed but permitted on the UNSC).
As for far right neo-nazi groups, pro-tip: Azov doesn’t account for even 1% of the total UAF. Talk about pointing to outliers. But I’m sure Zelenskyy – who is Jewish and whose ancestors were in the Holocaust – is really neo-nazi… Just stop and think about it for a second :)
Let’s not forget that Putin has since backpedaled on the Budest Memorandum and like Hitler invading Poland, invaded a sovereign nation under the false pretenses of protecting ethnic groups. How awfully convenient.
Thus far you are drinking the Russia Vodka. I encourage you to stop being so gullibly duped.
Incorrect. What Putin actually stated was that so long as Ukraine didn’t join NATO, then he wouldn’t attack. Ukraine pledged to not join NATO, and yet Putin attacked them anyway. But you know, it sure is funny how all those nations under the NATO banner HAVEN’T been attacked by Russia. It’s almost like… That’s kind of the… Point of NATO? Golly!
Russia is using second-hand ammunitions from North Korea that are blowing up in the faces of Russian troops. Russia is seeking help from 2-bit nations like Iran, and sure, some help from China. But China’s economy is wholly dependent on its economic relations with USA, and so will not overextend.
Russia itself has an economy smaller than California. Aid will continue to Ukraine and Ukraine can easily out-pace Russia. After all, the smaller Soviet-Afghan War brought down a stronger USSR.
“No End in Sight” doesn’t mean endless war. People enter tunnels for which they cannot see the end; but that doesn’t mean it’s endless…
So I repeat what was dodged; What will Corbyn say and do when Ukraine commits to a ceasefire, loses 17% of its landmass, allows Russia to regroup its forces, and strikes again?
I took the time to explain a nuanced alternative viewpoint and support it with reliable sources. It’s pretty unfair to just dismiss it as a gish gallop or misinformation.
I don’t have time to sit down and fully respond to your points now, but hopefully I’ll have time later today.
I do appreciate sources, but you should know better by now that the majority of these points have been thoroughly debunked.
Instead of meandering on this wild goose-chase, why don’t you just respond with the two most relevant things:
(1) You said yourself, “Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but–”
NO BUTS. That’s IT. Russia is IN THE WRONG.
(2) How do you ensure a tyrant doesn’t regroup under a ceasefire and strike again after he gained a prize? In what realm do you believe dictators just suddenly stop without being smacked down? Did Hitler stop after he got Poland?
No argument from me. I wasn’t condoning the Russian invasion so much as explaining what Russia’s grievances were.
It was not Putin’s intention to stay in Ukraine for long and the war has proven to be very costly. What he really wanted was to show the world that he would stand up to what he saw as the bullying of NATO, the EU, and the US.
A diplomatic solution that would have given Putin a chance to save face while also ensuring a ceasefire would have likely been enough for him, since he knew that Russia didn’t have the military strength to beat NATO and Euro forces in an outright ground war. This, incidentally, is why I don’t buy the direct comparison to Hitler, who actually had both the will and the military / economic might to take over Europe.
As to the very reasonable question of how: One suggestion I remember liking the sound of was the idea to establish a de-militarized zone along the Russian-Ukrainian border in the contested Donetsk-Luhansk region under the joint supervision of Kiyv, Moscow and the European Union.
Either way, I’m not saying it would have definitely worked out, but it seemed to me that not enough effort was given to trying to find a relatively peaceful alternative to a war that was always going to last years and costs tens of thousands of lives.
Thanks for the response. As a hypothetical: If we could go back in time, was there ever a point you believe the world or specific nations should’ve reached out to Hitler to negotiate a ceasefire and to let him have whatever piece of land he gained at that point in time? What are the long-term consequences of permitting such blitzes for territorial control only to be slapped on the wrist and permitting said tyrant to remain in power?
The problem with peace is that it’s not without precedent; and that precedent is to say, “the bully gets rewarded.” Ultimately, isn’t it the victim who has every right to decide how much they’re willing to bleed to fight back against the bully? Hence why every voice from NATO has been, “it’s up to Ukraine to decide for how long they wish to continue this war.”
At this point I don’t believe Ukraine is desperate enough to take that bargain. I think they know the wind is in their sails. I also think both sides are holding their breath and long-term decision-making based on the outcome of the US Presidential election. If things somehow went very south for Ukraine and they were at risk of losing significantly more territory (not a +1% gain) and Trump gets reelected and the alliance fragments, then perhaps they’d try to negotiate such a DMZ on the condition that they also get into NATO to ensure Russia will not re-arm and attack refreshed.
Shouldn’t it be obvious that at that point, Russian high command would see no point in negotiating much of anything? The best time for Ukraine to negotiate and sue for peace is when they have the initiative due to some technical/strategic innovation that leads to short term battlefield success (at least until the Russians adapt). The gains following the introduction of HIMARS back in 22 are one example. But himars is a child’s toy compared to real military innovation, which was already done in 1945 and we’ve been living in low key terror ever since.
But besides jokes about letting Ukraine have nukes again, I cannot see them ever winning a conventional war of attrition. They simply lack the manpower.
really parroting Putin’s talking points there
Cute but it’s the “…but” following that softening blow, obviously.
So why is Corbyn speaking on behalf of the victim and telling them what they should be okay with giving up?
Can you point to the quote where he says Ukraine should give up and what they should give up to make peace?
I’ll do one better:
Corbyn called for withdrawal of aid for Ukraine by the West.
Corbyn expects Ukraine to cede Crimea - 17% of Ukrainian Sovereign territory
the first one
He is critical of supplying arms and not looking for a peaceful solution, but that is not calling for a withdrawal of Aid despite the Guardian’s framing.
The second is from 2014 in which he says:
Nowhere in that second article does he say Ukraine should cede Crimea, he just gives a factual account of if being transferred from the Russian to the Ukrainian SSR. I’m really not seeing any simping for Putin here.
To be clear, I dont agree with Corbyn’s stance personally, I believe Russia is an expansionist imperialist power than needs to be stopped by force now that it has overstepped the line and launched a military invasion of a neighbor. But having a different view (as he does does that more effort should be put onto brokering a peace deal) not equate to being a patsy for a dictator.
Translation for #1: He’s telling them to give up because resistance is futile. Every conflict in history could find a peaceful solution if the oppressed simply gave up at the first sign of trouble with the oppressors. Clearly, that tends to be a losing strategy.
Translation for #2:
Obviously, without question, establishing a finders-keepers narrative.
I’m sorry but I do not buy either argument. It does not detract from the notion that Corbyn is trying to tell the defender, the victim, how they should be willing to fight back and how much they should be willing to lose.
I just want to know if Corbyn would volunteer for the front-line should Russia simply regroup following a ceasefire and attack again.
Ugh, embarrassing take. Do you think somebody talking about ending a war is betraying…yeah, what again?