Fun Fact: This section of Project 2025 was written by Christopher Miller.
You might know him from such things as “On January 5, Miller issued orders which prohibited deploying D.C. Guard members with weapons, helmets, body armor or riot control agents without his personal approval.”
That dude has a lot of forehead.
“Six Head”
I’m not opposed to a mandatory community service year upon turning 18, where a person who is physically and mentally able is required to spend 12 months PAID to work in a government organized community service program. This can help new adults gain new skills, create contacts, get references, and get off on the right foot financially.
But “military” is definitely not the right direction. IMO
The problem is that just discriminates against lower and middle class people more than anything.
It is work experience that has no meaningful value for a career (especially if EVERYONE has it) that mostly just serves to delay when people start college/trade school/whatever. Which hurts their ability to “hit the ground running” because they need to relearn what little they retained from high school but also impacts lifelong learning rather significantly. Whereas anyone who can pay off a doctor to say they have flat feet or some other non “yucky” issue will skip it.
And also? It is more or less worthless for the military. For anything short of cannon fodder, a year is nowhere near enough time to train someone to be useful. Even room clearing (e.g. Rangers) needs significantly more training to be less likely to shoot friendlies than foes. A lot of the problems in the Ukraine war (on both sides, honestly) can be traced to this. A soldier who can do more than “hold the line” needs significant training.
And while I think a return to having a strong emphasis on civil engineering and infrastructure as public service would be a great idea… without an education that is basically just hard physical labor. So now we have even more kids starting with debilitating injuries before they even begin their “real” career.
I hear your concerns.
Federal service is very broad though. Just consider ask the different Federal Agencies and the roles they fill.
For example, when I was in college I had a 6 month internship with the National Park Service doing trail maintenance for a national park. It serves me no purpose as a resume item but I look back on that time extremely fondly even though it was the hardest physical labor I’ve ever done. It was incredibly physical work with really 10+ miles of hiking every work day. The NPS across the US has an huge budgetary backlog of trail maintenance going back decades.
That all is just an example but I’m sure the NPS could make great use of thousands of young workers to improve our parks. Similarly, I’m sure across the board the Federal Agencies would have a vast multitude of roles for this Federal service, including working for the DoD but in non military roles. Most of the agencies would have vast amounts of work that isn’t covered by their budgets so it just doesn’t get done.
Federal service is very broad though. Just consider ask the different Federal Agencies and the roles they fill.
Exactly this. There are lots and lots and lots of jobs throughout the federal government (and states if we include them) that would be great to have people get exposed to. It would also give people a very real sense that government is not some airy-fairy thing that is just there to be bureaucratic and “steal” your taxes…
And while I think a return to having a strong emphasis on civil engineering and infrastructure as public service would be a great idea… without an education that is basically just hard physical labor. So now we have even more kids starting with debilitating injuries before they even begin their “real” career.
That repeated:
If you think having a bunch of kids who are pissed they aren’t hanging out with their friends or going to American Pie University or whatever and unleashing them on our parks is a good idea… you’ve never worked with teenagers.
If someone wants to serve (as in actually help people, not wear camo and expect a handshake from every person they ever see) then that should be supported. But you aren’t getting any meaningful skilled work out of people in a year of mandatory service. All you are doing is exploiting cheap labor while providing even more ways for the rich to get richer.
Federal service at this level does not make rich people richer. Working for their corporations does and that’s exactly what most people do when they finish school. Corporations even tend to layoff experienced workers and hire new graduates because they are cheaper. Federal service looks this benefits everyone that takes advantage of federal services the agencies provide.
Like I was trying to point out in my example, there is a vast amount of work that federal agencies need done that is not skilled labor. But there is value in exposing young people to a small section of how the federal government operates.
Okay, since it is clear you didn’t actually read anything I wrote, I’ll try one more time and paste exactly where I addressed that
It is work experience that has no meaningful value for a career (especially if EVERYONE has it) that mostly just serves to delay when people start college/trade school/whatever. Which hurts their ability to “hit the ground running” because they need to relearn what little they retained from high school but also impacts lifelong learning rather significantly. Whereas anyone who can pay off a doctor to say they have flat feet or some other non “yucky” issue will skip it.
Yes, being a brand new hire sucks and that means you are on the lowest part of the totem pole when it comes to layoffs.
So the people who graduated college one year early and began accumulating relevant work experience one year earlier? That can make a significant difference. Same with lifetime earnings.
Again, it is great you liked working in a national park. I have a friend who very much loves it too. That isn’t something you draft kids into unless you want them to set forest fires during their smoke breaks or creep on visitors. And it takes a decent amount of training to get someone to the point where they can do anything more meaningful than trash pickup and schlepping supplies to a competent person. And when you know they are going to be gone at the end of the year?
But “I maintained trails for a year” is, at best, character building. And when every single candidate whose parents didn’t buy their way out of it have something similar? It is worthless from a career perspective. Which, again, is how the rich get richer.
Again, if someone wants to take a year off and make the world a better place? There should e a LOT of benefits to doing that. But in a draft format? At best that is someone misunderstanding what they read in a history book.
Other examples might include environmental work or working with kids. It could all be not only team building but helping people develop an appreciation for their society and help work together to keep it running. It could help people see different perspectives by working together with people they wouldn’t normally interact with. For example, IF you spend a summer cleaning litter from local parks, maybe you’ll be less likely to litter
Peace Corp and WPA were both successes, but a portfolio of similar service opportunities is more likely to include something for everyone
I say force everyone to do a year of retail. That’ll do wonders for compassion as a whole.
I have my doubts. In my experience, the absolute worst customers were the ones who wanted to lecture you because
I used to work in retailThey used to work in retail when it wasn’t insane.
That’s like “I used to drink directly from the stream”
Was there ever a time when people were not being told toxic nonsense like “the customer is always right”, which only encouraged the Karens of the world to feel like entitled little assholes who always think they get to talk to the manager?
That is the sad truth.
Assholes are gonna asshole. If someone actually needs to work retail/service industry to know how much it sucks, they don’t have any empathy to begin with. This isn’t like “Wow, being a model or a pro wrestler is awesome” where people learn the reality of needing to maintain your body in a specific form while constantly traveling and being underpaid and so forth. NOTHING glorifies retail/service industry work.
So you mostly just get “Oh, I worked at a supermarket 40 years ago and my favorite thing to do was to walk around the parking lot to find carts. So I am really doing them a favor leaving the cart in the middle of a parking spot in 120F weather”.
I worked a looooong time ago in a service industry job and I got that same thing from the knobs. Here’s the thing though - I tended to not believe those people. If they did, they did it for like a week. That’s my guess.
Haha. I mean, you do have a point there.
I mostly agree. I think having a “do it by age 30” rule or something might be a little better than requiring it at 18 (I graduated high school at 17 and was already in university at 18 so this would have messed things up financially as well as mentally).
I think there would need to be a postponement situation. Not everyone is ready the day they turn 18.
the high school I went to had a mandatory number of hours of community service in order to graduate. It was neat, the kids did a very wide variety of things.
Sounds like a good opportunity.
In my country, if you can’t do the mandatory military service (and yes, being a pacifist is a valid reason I believe), you can do the same amount of time working for a charity and get paid minimum wage. I know a guy who worked for the food bank, but there are other options obviously.
It’s not the perfect program - I’d prefer if you could just immediately choose to do the humanitarian service instead of the military one, rather than having to go through the medical check for the military one first. And I think minimum wage is pretty horrible if you don’t also get provided housing… But overall, I like the idea.
I totally would have done it. I really needed some time on my own.
Rich kids and those with bone spurs will be exempt.
Require all private schools that wish to have accreditation take a minimum of $10 and a maximum of $11 of federal dollars.
Ok, but also I see this causing populist style attacks on disabled kids too. Especially those with invisible or “minor but valid” disabilities that disqualify.
My school had us all take it at 16.
If you refused you had to go sit in the cafeteria by yourself and weren’t allowed to even study. Just sit there with your eyes open not doing anything for like 4 hours.
Fuck that’s awful. Were you in Idaho or something equally awful?
Pretty much, we’re also talking about right after 9/11.
We had people signing delayed papers as soon as they turned 17 so they’d go to boot immediately after HS graduation.
It was a wild time.
They had us take it in the 90s in my high school but we quickly knew it was worth nothing so everyone tanked it on purpose. We were already weary of standardized testing and knew just what to ask the teachers.
Malicious compliance is always fun but way better in groups.
A bunch of us picked the same letter for every answer so we could compare our scores and test probability.
I went to high school during peace time — that used to be a thing way back when — and I think my school required it for ROTC but maybe it was more of a strong suggestion rather than a requirement.
We also had possibly the worst possible system for military recruiters. You had to choose between the regular P.E. class, weight lifting (if you played a sport), and ROTC. The end result was that ROTC was always like 2% committed future service members (who would have joined the military with or without high school ROTC) and 98% awkward people avoiding sports at all cost. (Or the worst fate of all, 1st hour PE so you were the person who smelled like stanky teen gym clothes in every one of your classes.)
My school had us all take it at 16.
If you refused you had to go sit in the cafeteria by yourself and weren’t allowed to even study. Just sit there with your eyes open not doing anything for like 4 hours.
Every time I hear stories like this, it reminds me of my old high school. As it was the only public school in the city and there were no alternatives, it was damn near impossible to actually get expelled unless you were physically threatening or dealing cocaine in the halls.
They tried punishments like this too for a variety of reasons. Not being ready for gym class, or some hands-on class that requires a uniform. In-school suspension for minor infractions. Dress code violations. Stuff like that. They were happy that most of the kids bothered to show up and not cause problems at all. Kids were gonna sit there with their headphones on, head on a desk, and probably taking a nap. Attempting to tell the kids they couldn’t do that was probably going to be met with a middle finger. What were you gonna do, suspend them? That’s what they wanted in the first place. It was a 3 day vacation to them.
Our school offered it, and you got out of your other classes to take it. I’m still in the military, some 18 years later, and I’d still suggest it for everyone as an option like mine was. I wouldn’t even feel too badly about schools requiring it. It’s just another test, without any obligation after. But, for a lot of lower income families, and for students who don’t perform too well, this opens another option for them after they graduate. Especially one that, with some potential risks to your body or life… could absolutely pay for your college.
People here don’t want a real tangible way out of their money problems.
It was a good start for me as well but people on Lemmy really don’t want to hear it.
I fucked my way through HS, and graduated with a 2.7 something. I fought hard at college to get a 3.2 by graduation. And I didn’t even go STEM. I wouldn’t have ever had scholarships or been able to be a traditional student without the military. I’m not making too much, but the opportunities I’ve had have come from this option, and that test. For some people a career and opportunity can be found here. Especially those poorer or lower income individuals I work with, people who were set up for failure or had it worse than I did.
Endless War is a Hallmark of Fascism. This will require a large number of cannon fodder.
Ask one of the schmucks advocating for this to be the first to enlist and I bet they’ll have some bullshit excuse as to why they can’t
For those not familiar with it, it is an aptitude test that covers a wide range of topics. The results can be informational. Beware if you score well enough to fill a job in the army that is really understaffed, you will never get the recruiters to stop calling.
I had all 3 branches showing up at my house and lying to my face to get me to join after my school made me take it.
You’d think they would realize that lying to someone who scored really high was a bad idea.
I scored very high (I peaked in high school). The Navy was at my house a short time later offering me a job as a nuclear tech in a submarine. Sit in a sub for months on end? It was a hot and quick “no” from me.
But you could sail the seven seas…
I sail the high seas these days, so that’s something! ;)
As it is with many teens, I had quite a difficult time with anyone telling me hwat to do. The military is all about that. Hard pass.
You can put your mind at ease
Just because you scored high doesn’t mean they did. They are recruiters, after all.
I wonder how low you have to score before the military doesn’t bother to recruit you, because I had to take the ASBAV in high school and I just filled in bubbles at random since I had no interest in dying in Iraq. I still got a high enough score that recruiters kept bothering me for years.
Don’t need a high score to be a bullet sponge in the army.
We took it senior year and I really didn’t know about it at the time. I must have flipped some switch because every branch started calling, and a navy recruiter actually came to my house wanting to talk about nuke school. I was like I don’t want to bomb anyone with nukes thank you very much lol.
NPS ‘nuke school’ focuses mainly on shipboard nuclear power plant operation, like nuclear powered subs.
I read that as “nuclear powered studs” and was thinking “about right for navy”
I took it, had an army recruiter show up a year later and asked to speak with me. My mom said I had already enlisted, the guy goes, “Oh, we already got em?”
“No, the Navy did, he left for bootcamp last fall.”
Also had my recruiter step between the Navy MEPS guy and I to tell him to fuck off and find me a job I wanted. He would not let the nuke thing go, and my recruiters already knew I had no interest and backed my other job choices. 😂
Yep. I got hounded for years and years.
“I’m sorry, I had an accident lately. Lost a hand and half my lung, and lost parts of my gray matter. Anyways, what would be my starting rank? General?”
I scored high on all fields but one and the recruiter never left me alone for four years, even finding me on Facebook.
Tell me it’s a draft without telling me it’s a draft
I have no idea what the test involves, but if that had been me, me and my friends would have tanked it and made the results useless.
I took it in high school just to have some extra testing under my belt for some reason that made sense at the time. It was probably the easiest test that I’d taken all 4 years. They’re not testing for who can be rocket surgeons, but for people who have practical smarts. There were a couple of questions where you were given a series of 10 connected gears and giving the rotation direction of the first had to predict the last. Yeah, not calculus.
We could start the first war fought by dropping rich people from drones!
No wait… dropping rich people on fire from drones. That’s better. We might run out of rich people, but they will run out of rich people first!
Glad I’m not in high school anymore. But this is kind of like in line with how schools prep you for getting used to being shuffled around because after school, you’re likely going to end up in a job that’s going to function similarly. So now instead of JROTC people bothering you in high school (like mine did) to recruit, now you’re going to have the government under Trump being like “we NEED you” and you’ve got no choice but to go.
Isn’t this like a preface setting for a draft? Sounds like it to me. This all says it’s a draft without trying to say or feel like it’s one.
You’d be surprised how many private schools receive federal funding.
But honestly this isn’t the worst thing. As long as it’s interacted with in an honest manner the ASVAB is an excellent career test. So an honest interaction with it would be counselors telling students their results and showing them career paths that line up with those results. To be clear, we’re talking about civilian career paths.
The problem is I don’t hear about it being done that way anymore. (My highschool did exactly the above) I only hear about it being used by recruiters, for recruiting.
When I took my asvab I was surprised when they told me my mechanical aptitude was really good…didn’t know a Phillips from a flat head but wound up as an aircraft mechanic which was fuckin dope!
Oh God, I was an idiot. My recruiter said I qualified for everything. I told him I wanted to be an Airborne Infantryman. He repeated, Everything, could write my own ticket. So I decided… To double down on an Airborne School and Infantry contract. If I could go back in time I’d give that man a beer, slap myself, and forge my own signature on a military intelligence analyst contract. I’d have loved that job, learning languages, embassy postings (travel), and being all up in everyone’s tea. But no 17 year old Maggoty had to be a dumbass.
Lmao, I have similar story but it actually worked out in the end for me. When I signed up for the Air Force I did really well on my ASVAB, but I told my recruiter that I wanted to leave as soon as possible because I just wanted to go already. Well she signed me up for open general, meaning the AF would pick my job for me. So I left for boot camp with no job and was assigned Cyber Security Analyst. Which was super lucky because I could have also been a cook or a cop or something
Dude, you were kissed by Murphy.
My high school made everyone take the asvab. I must have scored well on it because the military was up my ass. I remember uniformed soldiers regularly ringing the bell and asking for me. I had zero interest in joining the armed services, but they kept coming. My mom started answering the door for me; yelling at them to get lost and leave us alone.
Good fucking luck. Trying to get schools to give any standardized test is like pulling teeth, entire states have given up on the idea.
lol you know they’re still accepting the ones who got “draw a circle around the triangle” wrong
There’s always openings in front line infantry!
We did at my school.
If we find this becomes forced, just tell your kid they’re allowed to mark all a’s and turn it in. Done.
It literally has no bearing on their school grades.
It literally has no bearing on their school grades.
For now.
The more you cede, the more they will take.
Having to give on off advice to each child each time they are compelled to take a military aptitude test is much worse than not compelling that test.
Yes
