Umm. No. Sorry gunna pull my union card on this one since this is my Industry and while I am not an armorer or a props person I am emeshed in their understanding of property on a set as an On set dresser.
There is a legal duty of care held by everyone who handles a prop weapon. Furthermore there is a duty of care held by Producers on a show. Baldwin was not just an actor, he was a producer on Rust which means he had hiring and firing power.
Regularly this is how prop weapon safety works.
Prop weapons are only handled by an armorer who must maintain a full supervision of the weapon. It can never be used with live ammunition.
Loading can only ever take place by the props person (non union exception) or a designated armorer who must have an up to date licence.
Any mishandling of the weapon up to this stage leaves the armourer open to criminal liability. If someone steps in to this process at this stage they might take the lions share of liability. If an actor or someone who is not the props person charged with care of the weapon grabs it for instance without a hand off.
During the hand off of the weapon to an actor the props person does a last physical check of all the rounds in the weapon in sight of the actor. IF an actor accepts a weapon without doing this check then they are considered criminally negligent for any harm done with the weapon that would have been reasonably negated by this step. If the actor uses the weapon in a way that is unsafe after this check all liability is shoulded by the actor.
Following the weapon that killed on Rust it was used with live ammunition to shoot cans and abandoned on a cart. This makes the props person negligent by film safety practice. It was picked up by the 1st Assistant Director whom was not entitled to handle the weapon AT ALL which transfers some criminal negligence to him. The 1st AD handed the weapon to Baldwin and claimed it was a safe weapon WITHOUT performing the check. Anyone who saw this trade off on the set should have set off general alarm. But they didn’t. This could have had to do with power imbalances on set. You generally do not tell a Producer that they are doing something wrong unless you are either willing to trust the producer to be reasonable or baring that, are willing to lose your job. Wrongful termination suits are nigh nonexistent in film because chasing one might blacklist you from other productions.
The 1st AD is the main safety officer on set and Baldwin as an experienced actor would have been briefed on weapon safety protocols many times before. Having the 1st AD just hand you a weapon on set EVEN one that is an inert rubber replica would be an instant firing offence for the AD. Accepting the weapon without insisting on a check leaves the liability on the actor. They might have a lesser share depending on how experienced they might be. If they were ignorant of the protocol at the time then the production team would take that share liability for not properly enforcing safety on the set.
Baldwin as a producer in the days leading up to the accident had shown signs of being negligent in other areas of production safety and the people hired into positions that were to enforce safety on set. People left the production citing the unsafe conditions in protest. He may not shoulder the full liability of criminal negligence but he ABSOLUTELY owns a chunk of it. Directors and Producers REGULARLY push the boundaries of crew safety when they think they can get away with it and the bigger the name the more likely these accidents are. Remembering WHY we have these safety protocols and the people injured or killed in the past is something that is well known in the industry. We remember those killed or permanently maimed by production negligence because there but for the grace of God go us. Everyone who has been in this industry more than a decade personally knows someone whose life was permanently impacted by a bigshot throwing their weight around because of the natural power imbalances on set. One of my Co-workers sustained a permanently debilitating brain injury last year for just this reason. You dice with some one else’s death you gotta pay up when you lose.
A lot of people fall into error regarding common sense safety on set…like I have heard people go on about how “brave” Lady Gaga was to throw her weight around to film her video in an actual thunderstorm because the outcome was “worth it” not realizing how many injuries, including potentially fatal injuries could have resulted on the crew. People tend to sympathize and uncritically digest what people they “know” and respect tell them versus the rest of us who are relatively faceless.
The particularly upsetting thing is I know people who have literally ruined people’s lives and not only are they still working but overall they don’t change. The presumption that someone actually feels bad and applies that later isn’t my experience. At some level they find ways to self justify that what they did was reasonable and then they just blindly trust that lightning won’t strike twice.
The instinct is to react to something like this as a potential trolling move but… You could be sincere. I can’t say my brushes with Producers has given me much faith in their understanding of interdepartmental property management. Kind of makes sense since the general attitude I’ve noted regarding most potential Producer caused property damages from people at my level is “if they want to ruin the equipment we’ve rented they are the ones paying for it in the first place.”
I don’t tend to think of our industry as being very grounded. I have had production designers, directors and decorators ask for things that are quite frankly impossible by the easily observable laws of physics with no idea about how absurd they sound… But it’s something of a career limiting move to frame their request as being astronomically dumb when suggesting the potential complications. The “Emporer has no Clothes” effect is alive in film. But when you look at things from an outside legal perspective you have employers and employees and the chain of responsibilities to maintain a safe work environment. Most of the time the actual nuts and bolts work is the domain of the PM to mitigate potential damage to the overall investment.
I think union film work is in part generally pretty well inoculated against the majority of criminal negligence cases by the culture of highly regimented structure… And endemic jadedness at the bottom. A newbie will light themselves on fire to keep production warm but that isn’t good for production or the newbie so it’s unofficial job of the seniors in lateral positions and the boss directly above to make sure that doesn’t happen.
Most of the time it seems like the creative captains and financiers of the ship keep their eye firmly on what they want to creativity achieve and rhen the bosses below look at their first job as being to impress. We play very risky political game with our own supervisors if we call foul. Put a call into an IATSE steward about a safety concern that makes a boss look bad and they will give you the straight rule as best they can apply it to your complaint but they also give you a caution that just because the rules are there to protect your safety doesn’t mean that you as a laborer won’t have your career harmed for standing your ground.
We’re all just day calls. We don’t have to be fired. Our bosses just don’t have to hire us back for the next show and the people at the top never need to know.
Nope, all actors need to know is “Don’t take a gun from anyone but a props person and make sure they open the chamber, remove and check each round in the chamber while you watch.”
It’s like one or two more steps complicated than telling a young child “don’t take medicine from anyone but a parent”.
Umm. No. Sorry gunna pull my union card on this one since this is my Industry and while I am not an armorer or a props person I am emeshed in their understanding of property on a set as an On set dresser.
There is a legal duty of care held by everyone who handles a prop weapon. Furthermore there is a duty of care held by Producers on a show. Baldwin was not just an actor, he was a producer on Rust which means he had hiring and firing power.
Regularly this is how prop weapon safety works.
Prop weapons are only handled by an armorer who must maintain a full supervision of the weapon. It can never be used with live ammunition.
Loading can only ever take place by the props person (non union exception) or a designated armorer who must have an up to date licence.
Any mishandling of the weapon up to this stage leaves the armourer open to criminal liability. If someone steps in to this process at this stage they might take the lions share of liability. If an actor or someone who is not the props person charged with care of the weapon grabs it for instance without a hand off.
During the hand off of the weapon to an actor the props person does a last physical check of all the rounds in the weapon in sight of the actor. IF an actor accepts a weapon without doing this check then they are considered criminally negligent for any harm done with the weapon that would have been reasonably negated by this step. If the actor uses the weapon in a way that is unsafe after this check all liability is shoulded by the actor.
Following the weapon that killed on Rust it was used with live ammunition to shoot cans and abandoned on a cart. This makes the props person negligent by film safety practice. It was picked up by the 1st Assistant Director whom was not entitled to handle the weapon AT ALL which transfers some criminal negligence to him. The 1st AD handed the weapon to Baldwin and claimed it was a safe weapon WITHOUT performing the check. Anyone who saw this trade off on the set should have set off general alarm. But they didn’t. This could have had to do with power imbalances on set. You generally do not tell a Producer that they are doing something wrong unless you are either willing to trust the producer to be reasonable or baring that, are willing to lose your job. Wrongful termination suits are nigh nonexistent in film because chasing one might blacklist you from other productions.
The 1st AD is the main safety officer on set and Baldwin as an experienced actor would have been briefed on weapon safety protocols many times before. Having the 1st AD just hand you a weapon on set EVEN one that is an inert rubber replica would be an instant firing offence for the AD. Accepting the weapon without insisting on a check leaves the liability on the actor. They might have a lesser share depending on how experienced they might be. If they were ignorant of the protocol at the time then the production team would take that share liability for not properly enforcing safety on the set.
Baldwin as a producer in the days leading up to the accident had shown signs of being negligent in other areas of production safety and the people hired into positions that were to enforce safety on set. People left the production citing the unsafe conditions in protest. He may not shoulder the full liability of criminal negligence but he ABSOLUTELY owns a chunk of it. Directors and Producers REGULARLY push the boundaries of crew safety when they think they can get away with it and the bigger the name the more likely these accidents are. Remembering WHY we have these safety protocols and the people injured or killed in the past is something that is well known in the industry. We remember those killed or permanently maimed by production negligence because there but for the grace of God go us. Everyone who has been in this industry more than a decade personally knows someone whose life was permanently impacted by a bigshot throwing their weight around because of the natural power imbalances on set. One of my Co-workers sustained a permanently debilitating brain injury last year for just this reason. You dice with some one else’s death you gotta pay up when you lose.
I enjoy having my mind changed by well-written, well-reasoned posts from people who are informed. Thank you.
Thank you for having your mind changed!
A lot of people fall into error regarding common sense safety on set…like I have heard people go on about how “brave” Lady Gaga was to throw her weight around to film her video in an actual thunderstorm because the outcome was “worth it” not realizing how many injuries, including potentially fatal injuries could have resulted on the crew. People tend to sympathize and uncritically digest what people they “know” and respect tell them versus the rest of us who are relatively faceless.
The particularly upsetting thing is I know people who have literally ruined people’s lives and not only are they still working but overall they don’t change. The presumption that someone actually feels bad and applies that later isn’t my experience. At some level they find ways to self justify that what they did was reasonable and then they just blindly trust that lightning won’t strike twice.
Lemmy needs a Best Of so this could be posted to it
Damn this should be a best of Lemmy post if we have a community for that
This is new info to me (producer). Thanks for enlightening me.
The instinct is to react to something like this as a potential trolling move but… You could be sincere. I can’t say my brushes with Producers has given me much faith in their understanding of interdepartmental property management. Kind of makes sense since the general attitude I’ve noted regarding most potential Producer caused property damages from people at my level is “if they want to ruin the equipment we’ve rented they are the ones paying for it in the first place.”
I don’t tend to think of our industry as being very grounded. I have had production designers, directors and decorators ask for things that are quite frankly impossible by the easily observable laws of physics with no idea about how absurd they sound… But it’s something of a career limiting move to frame their request as being astronomically dumb when suggesting the potential complications. The “Emporer has no Clothes” effect is alive in film. But when you look at things from an outside legal perspective you have employers and employees and the chain of responsibilities to maintain a safe work environment. Most of the time the actual nuts and bolts work is the domain of the PM to mitigate potential damage to the overall investment.
I think union film work is in part generally pretty well inoculated against the majority of criminal negligence cases by the culture of highly regimented structure… And endemic jadedness at the bottom. A newbie will light themselves on fire to keep production warm but that isn’t good for production or the newbie so it’s unofficial job of the seniors in lateral positions and the boss directly above to make sure that doesn’t happen.
Most of the time it seems like the creative captains and financiers of the ship keep their eye firmly on what they want to creativity achieve and rhen the bosses below look at their first job as being to impress. We play very risky political game with our own supervisors if we call foul. Put a call into an IATSE steward about a safety concern that makes a boss look bad and they will give you the straight rule as best they can apply it to your complaint but they also give you a caution that just because the rules are there to protect your safety doesn’t mean that you as a laborer won’t have your career harmed for standing your ground.
We’re all just day calls. We don’t have to be fired. Our bosses just don’t have to hire us back for the next show and the people at the top never need to know.
TIL that being an actor requires a law degree if you don’t want to potentially end up in jail.
Nope, all actors need to know is “Don’t take a gun from anyone but a props person and make sure they open the chamber, remove and check each round in the chamber while you watch.”
It’s like one or two more steps complicated than telling a young child “don’t take medicine from anyone but a parent”.