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The number of people who still think nuclear is bad and solar / wind will make up for it is really depressing. We could have had an unrivaled nuclear power infrastructure but those NIMBY assholes stopped it 50 years ago and now we rely on extending existing plants past their lifetimes while running in fucking circles about how to save the planet. Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league! AaagggghHhHhhhhhhhh
The problems with nuclear power aren’t meltdowns, but the facts that it often takes decades just to construct a new plant, it creates an enormous carbon footprint before you get it running, it has an enormously resource-intensive fuel production process, it contributes to nuclear proliferation, it creates indefinitely harmful waste, and even if we get past all of that and do expand it, that’s just going to deplete remaining fuel sources faster, of which we only have so many decades left.
It’s not a good long term solution. I agree we should keep working plants running, but we can’t do that forever, and we still need renewable alternatives - wind, hydro and solar.
And it wasn’t some nebulous group of NIMBYs that worked against nuclear power, it was the fossil fuel lobby. I don’t know why people keep jumping to cultural explanations for what is clearly a structural issue. The problem isn’t some public perception issue, but political will, and that tends to be bought by the fossil fuel lobby.
Also there is good science on why we actually can switch to entirely renewables: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/23/no-miracles-needed-prof-mark-jacobson-on-how-wind-sun-and-water-can-power-the-world
Thank you for providing a bigger picture
Re: Remaining fuel.
If we built breeder reactors we could use the spent waste fuel to power the entire US for 1000 years. That runs into plutonium existence problems, but it’s a political problem, not a resource problem.
However, I still agree with what you’ve said. We should limit our nuclear footprint to key isotope production, but we really shouldn’t be doing that until we’ve gone full carbon neutral.
Edit: In case you can’t see the reply to this comment, my conversation partner has given me more information I didn’t have before. Breeder reactors are neat, but they have more issues than I originally knew. (Still a badass concept though :P) https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2968/066003007
I don’t think nuclear power was killed by NIMBYs, at least not entirely. In the 1970s and 80s the financial world started taking a much more short-term view. Nuclear power plants have such a huge up-front cost that you aren’t going to see returns for decades. When the market wants numbers to go up every quarter they’re not going to finance something that won’t make a profit for 20 years.
If only it were as exciting as the shitty startups that sell for millions a few years after being founded despite never making any profit…
I don’t understand why individuals are so set on centralized generation. We suddenly have the capabilities to decentralize generation and greatly reduce the need for the grid. I think it is worth it for the aesthetic advantages alone.
My opinion is that to be truly decentralized we should do both. Not just physically decentralize by location, but decentralized in a sense of having multiple options. We should do solar, and wind, and nuclear power. The power output of solar and wind is just not where it needs to be to replace both nuclear and fossil fuels, so I do have to argue in favor of building more nuclear power, but that doesn’t mean I am against building any other renewables as well.
The problem with nuclear is it gives fossil fuel giants a free pass to try speedrun killing the planet before it even arrives.
If we plan for nuclear, we plan to do nothing for 50 years.
I haven’t the slightest idea what you’re talking about. Nuclear displaces fossil fuels at a better rate than renewables and is just as low carbon impact as them. We could replace the entire fossil grid with nuclear in 10 years if there was public support and demand for it, but fossil giants have been parroting the same antinuclear myths and fears dor the last 70 years and its so widely spread even pro renewable people have been deluded into thinking nuclear is bad for the planet when it might very well be our last best hope of fixing greenhouse emissions without the entire world reverting to pre industrial lifestyles.
I wish i could send you a beer
The number of people who still think nuclear power is a manageable risk in any capacity is really depressing. We still have no idea what to do with all the nuclear waste we’re creating even now. And that’s not even considering the impact of having a nuclear plant when you’re in a war.
the impact of having a nuclear plant when you’re in a war
Ukraine seems to be fine, beyond Russians digging up their own fuck up dirt from the past to dig trenches
The entire French nation begs to differ. Look at that map! Power generation alllll over the country, not tucked in an unpopulated area or clustered in one spot ‘just in case’.
Then look across the border at Germany. The CND and Greens did a number on then generations ago, and Russia has kept up the fear over nuclear so they were able to keep Germany dependent on Gazprom. Until Ukraine.
Please provide valid sources to back up your comment. Thanks.
I’ll be a source. I worked at Calvert Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant in MD for over 10 years. Because of the trend of shutting down nuclear, I shifted over to operating a combined cycle power plant. Calvert with 2 units did about 1800MW combined, base loaded 24/7 except for outages, and those were staggered so that when one went down for maintenance and refueling, the other unit was still throwing 900MW to the grid. My current plant has 2 gas engine turbines and 1 STG, and on a good day when we’re fully up 2x1 with ducts in, we can hit about 800MW when it’s called for. Balls to the wall in perfect conditions on a plant that’s not even ten years old, we can’t do half of what Calvert was doing and they’ve been operating since the 70s.
Imagine what modern nuclear tech could do. We should’ve been a step ahead of everybody with this.
Do you have any opinions on light water SMR designs? Do you think the idea to mass produce them and distribute these smaller reactors on a local basis is feasible, or do you think if they are mass produced we would be more likely to see them clustered in series in more modern plants?
Thanks for this. I did ask OP for sources, in other words links to verifiable data to back up the assertion that:
“Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league! AaagggghHhHhhhhhhhh”
The data is widely available and easy to find.
It’s the difference between spending 0 seconds looking it up and wanting “a source”, versus actually looking it up and not finding anything, then asking where the info comes from.
Asking for a source just to ask for a source is called sealioning.
Asking for a source just to ask for a source is called sealioning.
Good grief, no.
I read so much absolute bullshit around nuclear and renewables where people just write out their feelings on the subject. Asking for sources to back up their claims isn’t sealioning, it’s a polite way of asking someone to try and back up their claims with facts.
In this instance, OP said, “Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league! AaagggghHhHhhhhhhhh”
I want to know what they’re talking about. If they’re saying 1 solar panel or wind turbine has a smaller output than a nuclear plant then … well yeah, that’s obvious. If they’re saying renewables won’t work without nuclear then that’s a straight up lie and I’d like them to post sources to back up that assertion.
Here are the claims he made:
We could have had an unrivaled nuclear power infrastructure but those NIMBY assholes stopped it 50 years ago
now we rely on extending existing plants past their lifetimes
Running in fucking circles about how to save the planet.
Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league
So which part do you know to be false, that you couldn’t easily look up and had to ask him where he got this obscure info? Which part do you want him to source? All of it? Even the part where we are running in circles fixing climate change? Or is it the part where current plants are being showered in money to make up for extended lifetimes?
Right, you were just sealioning.
So which part do you know to be false,
Re-read what I wrote, I was quite clear although I edited my post a minute after submitting so maybe you missed it.
You can claim I’m sealioning all you want, anyone with a functioning brain can see I’m not.
So this kind of got lost in the weeds, and I see the argument below. The real reason I wont provide sources is partly because it is very easy to look up, and the reality is I could write a thesis with a ton of fucking sources and never cover it all. Typically, in an actual scientific debate, the onus is on you to provide a source which debunks my claims. However, I can give a short summary with some general, but verifiable numbers. I did a quick search for all of this, and most of it is on wikipedia with sources listed.
The average American nuclear power plant provides about 800-1000MW of energy, and has a life time of about 35-40 years. The US has 88 of them, most of which have been running since the 70s. Their age means many should be considered for decommissioning soon, but since we haven’t been building new ones to replace them the old ones continue to be serviced while we seek alternatives.
America’s largest solar farm produces ~350MW, which is less than half of a nuclear plant. That’s actually pretty decent, but this is the high end of the scale for solar, and this output is only achievable in perfect conditions (weather, daytime, location). At night it produces nothing. So the major problem many solar / wind enthusiasts ignore when discussing this is what happens then? How do we store enough power to sustain a city, or something larger, through every night? Those mighty big batteries aren’t eco friendly either, since at the moment our best option is lithium. That may change soon but we can’t really move on maybe.
My point to start with was that we should have never stopped building nuclear - we could have pushed fossil fuel out ages ago, but lobbyists really fucked that. Solar is great, but we need like 200 more of those major solar farms and an absolute fuckload of massive batteries, and the logistics of that is a nightmare that is unlikely to see fruition in time. It will be a long time before we have enough solar / wind to do more than supplement our power grid. We should keep building it in the meantime, but it is also a slow process, much like building nearly any large scale power generation.
To be clear, I am in favor of both. Nuclear should have always been the back bone of our power grid. Solar should be coming online as supplementary power supply allowing us to decentralize and support the transition to greener tech. This is not an either/or situation - we really need both, or fossil fuels will royally fuck our planet first. Maybe someday we will be efficient enough to go all solar, but expecting it to replace fossil fuels AND nuclear in the near future is just unrealistic idealism. We will die before hitting such ideal goals - in the meantime we must compromise.
I’ve got solar panels on my roof, and being Dutch windmills are in my blood. But I’m also not blind to the reality that both wind and solar will only get you so far. And there’s already a lot of opposition to wind farms - they ruin the view, endanger birds and there’s health concerns due to noise and shadow projection.
If we just build even one nuclear powerplant, we could basically just… not do wind. And we’d have pleeeenty of power for the coming energy transition, change to electric vehicles, etc.
But noooo… nuclear is scary. Especially to the people who only cite Fukushima and Chernobyl in regards to safety. That’s the same as banning air travel because of 9/11 and the Tenerife disaster. Nuclear power is safe, cheap and we owe it to the planet to use it wisely instead of more polluting alternatives.
You know what’s scary? The existential threat of climate change.
Absolutely that’s scary. Heck, we’re seeing the effects of it every day. If more nuclear means less coal and other polluting options, I’m all for it.
Are you really saying that to a Dutch? They are the first ones that get affected by rising sea levels, don’t worry, they know it’s scary.
“Endanger birds”
A whole lot less than most alternative solutions
Nuclear is not cheap.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity
Even the link itself mentions how it’s not really a good metric to use as it doesn’t factor in whole lot of externalities. I.e coal is cheaper, but when it creates air pollution that shortens your lifespan, is it worth the tradeoff? Nor does it factor in things like energy density: a nuclear power plant is far smaller than the amount of land needed to put up enough wind turbines to match its output.
Basically… LCOE looks like a neat gotcha, right up until you look past that first diagram.
https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2022/nuclear-wasted-why-the-cost-of-nuclear-energy-is-misunderstood
Its expensive to build new bespoke massive, built on site reactors. I’m not arguing for more of them I’m saying lets run them for their full service lives as they were so expensive to produce. However if we are discussing new installations i’d love to start making a lot of small modular light water reactors in factory conditions. Economies of scale.
Its cheaper than climate change.
Would you put your own money into nuclear power these days?
I would. ROI takes longer, but they’re super fucking profitable as soon as they turn a profit at all. They’re generally base loaded 24/7 except for about 3-4 weeks per year for refueling outage. I’m 35, so assume 10 years to build and another 10 years before it starts profiting. I’m retired at 55. Sounds pretty good to me.
I would. ROI takes longer, but they’re super fucking profitable as soon as they turn a profit at all.
Citation needed.
My state has a pair of nuclear plants built in the 70s, 40+ years ago. Not only are they not profitable, they lose lots of money every year. In 2021, these two plants lost $93 million. source - warning PDF
The only way these two nuclear plants became profitable was when Republicans were bribed by the energy company (First Energy) to force increased rates and fees on the citizens through legislated bail out so the energy companies could make a profit while also gutting the green energy initiatives in the state. I’m not even exaggerating any of this. The former Republican speaker of the house is now in prison serving 20 years accepting something close to (from memory) $150 million in bribes. source
If you can tell me when nuclear power gets cheaper, I’d really like to see it. We certainly haven’t here.
Well, in Germany the government basically paid for all the R&D. Then they massively subsidised the construction. Then the nukes were profitable for a while, especially after they got to run them way past their design life. And finally, the government got stuck with most of the bill for decommissioning. So all in all, nukes are a great way for privatising profits and socialising losses, which is what our current economic system is all about.
Citation needed.
Watch out, some dickhead might accuse you of sealioning.
Wouldn’t be the first time. If someone makes a claim, they can back it up. I do.
The alternative is to be making bank on a far smaller outlay much more quickly with renewables.
I absolutely would and have done so: https://www.vaneck.com/us/en/investments/uranium-nuclear-energy-etf-nlr/
Sure would. I put money into renewable stocks and they tanked hard. Looking at you RNW.
We already run carriers and subs on nukes, supertankers and massive cargo ships could use them too. And arguably should, given they’re a huge, massive source of pollution.
I literally own a bit of stock in the most nuclear-power-related company in my country - so yes.
I wouldn’t build a new power plant, but reactivating existing ones makes sense and is cheaper per GW than solar and reactivation has insignificant emissions.
Paper money, sure. But nickels and dimes? No thanks, I don’t want to walk around with radioactive currency
Exactly. It’s not about building new ones, that’s incredibly expensive with modern Western safety standards. But at least keep the ones already built running as long as it’s safe. Germany really fucked up with this due to populism
The greens are principle over matter.
Yeah, principles.
The principles that it won’t be profitable for 50+ years if at all.
And it will mean we are stuck with fossil fuels for just as long.
So I’m all for doing anything to survive, preferably sometime in the last 50 years.
The principles that it won’t be profitable for 50+ years if at all.
Sure, and your source for that is a green politician or an anti-nuclear thinktank?
So I’m all for doing anything to survive, preferably sometime in the last 50 years.
“Anything” for greens somehow doesn’t include nuclear for greens 🤷♂
Because the money is better spent elsewhere.
Yet if we plan for nuclear it’ll be like “oh no, we’ve had project delays and cost blowouts” like they do every time and we will just burn fossil fuels the whole time and die anyway.
Also the anti nuclear green think tanks are called educated people. And all you’d need to do is look at the European failures and shut downs to know the costs don’t add up.
Also the anti nuclear green think tanks are called educated people.
LMAO. Your brain must be so much bigger than that of physicists who are proponents of nuclear energy. Mr “disagreement with my opinion means you’re wrong”.
Very convincing argumentation
Enter the IAEA web page, there you will find that not even IAEA rhinks of nuclear energy as a replacement. Thats because uranium reserves arent infinite. Once conventional uranium mines run out of uranium, we will have to go for the non conventional ones and prices will go up the paradigm IAEA professes is nuclear is excellent as a transition techonology (they also include natural gas as a transition techonology) to a fully renewable energy market.
Also, its generally not advisable to have more than a 10% of nuclear energy.
We have to cut the demand.
https://www.iaea.org/publications/15558/nuclear-energy-in-mitigation-pathways-to-net-zero
We will never run out of fuel for the next few 10 thousand years. And by that time we’ll probably have functional Dyson spheres.
It’s just not going to happen, it’s way too slow to become profitable. There are plenty of nuclear power plants in production that have been in production for 40 years that still aren’t profitable.
Storage is going to have to be the thing that makes up for the instability of solar and wind, whether it be in the form of heat storage, hydrogen production, fly wheels, or some breakthrough in Battery Tech.
Energy shouldn’t be a business, it’s a necessity at this point.
It shouldn’t be, but I don’t live in Fairy Tail land, I live in the real world. And as sad as it is the fact of the matter is if it’s not profitable it’s not happening. At least not in the US, so unless the population finally chooses the band together tear down the current structure and basically change overnight I have to ask for realistic possible solutions
And? I don’t live in the USA and neither does most of the world. They aren’t the biggest nation even.
The US is the worst offending nation but many others will fail for the same reason. Was just heading off the “but this one small place with specific economics did it” comments
China are building, designing, and testing more nuclear and new nuclear technologies. I hardly think that’s a small nation. My own country is building new nuclear plants too. Planning to open 2026. Another 8 are being considered right now to be built on existing sites (presumably to replace older ones). France have massive nuclear investment and are the ones supplying our new reactors if memory serves.
Every time I’m in a thread about nuclear power it’s the same shit.
Y’all really have no fuckin clue how much safer it is than fossil fuels. But go ahead and keep letting the oil industry convince you otherwise.
I think you replied to the wrong person.
People who want nuclear plants should also vote for having a nuclear waste storage in your area if that is possible. In germany we still dont have a solution for the waste we already have and the states who want Nuclear Plants are already said no to havin a storage in their state. You cant make this shit up
Weird how y’all haven’t figured it out yet considering Finland has and Germany has had nuclear power plants for longer.
But I suspect it’s more of a lack of wanting to do what’s needed for storage because ‘politics’ and boomers than it is because it’s not possible.
Could be that Finland is a big country with only 5,5 million people living there compared to 83million in germany. Easier to find a place.
Yeah, and like most of Europe, that German population lives in cities, not random forests and mountains in the middle of nowhere where you could also do underground storage like Finland has done.
Not to mention Germany has more land.
Don’t you think it sounds crazy to build a underground storage just to have it closed for a million years. I just can’t understand why anybody would want that.
FFS do some research, you dig a big hold drill sideways for a bit and back fill it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_drillhole_disposal
But why would you do that if you can just without.
Well you see we kinda are failing at the whole mitigating climate change issue and we and we only have so many rare earth minerals to exploit for large scale battery storage banks. And every year we are burning more Fossil Fuels and shutting down more reactors and building no new modern designs and giving nuclear none of the funding the fossil fuel industry receives or the renewables industry receives.
The waste doesn’t pose any danger as long as it’s stored securely and doesn’t cost that much space. The only downside of the waste is that it needs to be stored forever, but that’s a very, very, small price to pay for not destroying the planet…
But its also possible without nuclear waste. You are just pushing the problems with the waste to the future generations.
There needs to be a future generation to push it onto first…
Agreed, the future generations already have enough problems. Thats why we should invest into stuff that brings solutions and does not create problems.
You and your fearmongering is the problem
No, money is the problem. If nuclear wasnt that expensive then sure, go for it.
Every dollar / euro / whatever invested in nuclear power should have been invested in real renewable energy for a bigger impact and a better sustainable transition to green energy.
It gets especially funny when you can’t use the powerplants in the summer anymore because it gets too hot for the cooling water like it has been in France.
You dolt there was never a problem with cooling the plants. The issue was that there is red tape that limits how much water the plant can discharge into the Rhine. That could have easily been addressed if the plants were just allowed to cycle more water. The higher the flow rate the colder the water will come out the other end . The water is put through a heat exchanger and then cycled back to the river. If more water can be piped through then the reactor can maintain lower temperatures.
