IDF: Whoops, tee hee.
Well they’re still blowing up kids with these things so idk if it’s the most brilliant targeting technique
Compared to dumping white phosphorus over hospitals and refugee camps, killing 2 (?) children during an attack that targeted hundreds/thousands is many orders of magnitude more precise. I hate dead innocents as much as anyone, but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
The point of the post isn’t to praise the pagers attack. It’s to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
Fucking weird comment.
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Yeah. No I don’t.
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Do you admit that mass gas chambers are an effective way to kill people ?
So much nuance, wow
Yes. A very large part of what made the holocaust so terrible was that it was very effective at killing people.
…are you implying that mass gas chambers aren’t an effective way to kill people?
If my goal was to kill exclusively enemy combatants and leave all civilians alone, it would be pretty effective to round them up and gas them, yes. I’d rather do that than indiscriminate fire.
Combatants tend to violently fight back, when you try to round them up. They also tend to hide among civilians in case of terrorist militia like Hezbollah.
You do realise targets in Gaza and targets in Lebanon are not the same? On one hand you have fighters shielding themselves behind civilians and dont even know what a pager is and why they would use it, on the other hand you have political and operative leaders on these fighters that need these pagers to stay low profile and untaped…
On one hand you have fighters shielding themselves behind civilians
You’re right, this is disgusting…
And this is too. Do these people have no morals? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/23/human-shielding-in-action-israeli-forces-strap-palestinian-man-to-jeep
And Guess who put these booby traps?
Ah so using human shields is OK all of a sudden? What about the second example? Don’t worry, I can find more if you like
Bruh… Hamas put these traps in the middle of their “citizens”, do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
I’m confused why you were so outraged by the use of human shields at first and now when I send examples you all of a sudden don’t seem to care. You didn’t even mention the second example yet.
Hamas so any tactic of waffen IDF is valid?
Bruh… Hamas put these traps in the middle of their “citizens”, do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
bruh… that’s a limp dick excuse for a genocide lol
deleted by creator
Please give us a rundown of when human shields are okay and not okay. Let me guess, it depends who is using them, but in a roundabout way?
Bruh… Hamas put these traps in the middle of their “citizens”, do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
It’s amusing/depressing you went for the latter part of my post.
That’s not really true unless you believe IDF propaganda
Security
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice. See: The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948, the Transfer Committee, and the JNF which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate, before the mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948: Plan Dalet, Declassified Massacres of 1948, and Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948) . Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967: Haaretz, Forward; while the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements (Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ). The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Civilian Deaths and Human Shields:
Israel does deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so: ‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza, Lavender, and Where’s Daddy. When it comes to Israeli Soldiers and Civilians, there is also the use of the Hannibal Directive, which was also used on Oct 7th.
Hundreds of Genocide Scholars have described this ethnic cleansing campaign as genocide because of the deliberate targeting of children/civilians and expressed intent by Israeli officials: “A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza, 800+ Legal Scholars Say Israel May Be Perpetrating ‘Crime of Genocide’ in Gaza , Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated.
On the subject of Human Shields, there are some independent reports for past conflicts of Hamas jeopardizing the safety of civilians via Rocket fire in dense urban areas, two instances during Oct 7th, but no independent verification since then so far. None of which absolve Israel of the crime of targeting civilians under international law:
Intentionally utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain areas immune from military attack is prohibited under international law. Amnesty International was not able to establish whether or not the fighters’ presence in the camps was intended to shield themselves from military attacks. However, under international humanitarian law, even if one party uses “human shields”, or is otherwise unlawfully endangering civilians, this does not absolve the opposing party from complying with its obligations to distinguish between military objectives and civilians or civilian objects, to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects.
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields: IDF uses Human Shields, including Children (2013 Report), and in the latest war Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds
What does any of this relate to pagers strike?
Also, your sources… Lol…
Not all of Hezbollah are combatants, things are not that simple. Not all of Hezbollah are militants, there are many social workers and politicians. And even if they were, there are zero guarantees that all the pagers ended up in the hands of Hezbollah members. And even if that was the case, detonating them in public spaces is still a violation of international humanitarian law. By it’s nature this was a massive terrorism attack
Quote
Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah. Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity, Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association, and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association. Jihad Al Binna’s Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon. Hezbollah has set up a Martyr’s Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.
Hezbollah holds 14 of the 128 seats in the Parliament of Lebanon and is a member of the Resistance and Development Bloc. According to Daniel L. Byman, it is “the most powerful single political movement in Lebanon.” Hezbollah, along with the Amal Movement, represents most of Lebanese Shi’a.
Lol its like saying all nazis were not bad guys 🤡
No, it’s not. If you want to make a Nazi comparison, it would be a comparison with Israel. But that doesn’t justify the targeting of Israeli civilians anymore than the justification of targeting Nazi Germany civilians like the Dresden bombings, which was a war crime and not justified.
Einstein along with many others compared the fascist actions of Zionism to Nazi Germany back in 1948, in wake of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
It’s an Obama type technique. Sure, you might blow up a few innocents, but the rate of eliminated enemies vs killed innocents is better than in traditional warfare, so a numbers guy would always go for that one.
Leaked official documents show that that wasn’t really the case as the public was led to believe
Quotes
The White House and Pentagon boast that the targeted killing program is precise and that civilian deaths are minimal. However, documents detailing a special operations campaign in northeastern Afghanistan, Operation Haymaker, show that between January 2012 and February 2013, U.S. special operations airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets. During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets. In Yemen and Somalia, where the U.S. has far more limited intelligence capabilities to confirm the people killed are the intended targets, the equivalent ratios may well be much worse.
The documents show that the military designated people it killed in targeted strikes as EKIA — “enemy killed in action” — even if they were not the intended targets of the strike. Unless evidence posthumously emerged to prove the males killed were not terrorists or “unlawful enemy combatants,” EKIA remained their designation, according to the source. That process, he said, “is insane. But we’ve made ourselves comfortable with that. The intelligence community, JSOC, the CIA, and everybody that helps support and prop up these programs, they’re comfortable with that idea.”
The source described official U.S. government statements minimizing the number of civilian casualties inflicted by drone strikes as “exaggerating at best, if not outright lies.”
When your goal is genocide, a kill is a kill
Its accepting Israeli propaganda to say that this was a precision strike. This is like using cluster munitions.
Whenever Israel comes up with an idea for an assassination they do it because they can. Its a force of habit for them.
There is no accident.
Mossad: “Making 40,000 pagers full of C4 and then convincing everyone in Gaza that they’re hip in 2024 is not profitable! What are we, Apple?”
Also Mossad: “But what about Lebanon?”
30 points - 1 day ago.
What happened to this site? Do people think this shit is funny?
But how would they arbitrarily punish everyone without carpet bombing? It’s not like everyone has a pager.
If you pull the thread enough there won’t be any sweatshirt left. Chill bro.
It took them years to prepare that operation. It was against Hezbollah, not Hamas, because they saw them as the bigger threat.
The war in Gazah is barbaric, but the sensible immediate alternative would have been a very targeted operation to find and rescue the hostages, not something like this.
And it required Hezbollah to have no concept of logistic security. Maybe Hamas is not as amateurish as Hezbollah in that regard.
The idf keep killing their hostages in what seem like very purposeful attempts to do so.
You don’t make an omelet without cracking a fews eggs
Just wait the carpet bombing will arrive sooner or later.
Whoa. Hey guys. New war crime just dropped.
Room had too be made. Same as what’s happening in the West Bank right now. The Lebenon isn’t an expansion target.
None of this should be a surprise to anyone.
deleted by creator
i think they killed like, 12 people, and injured somewhere between 1-2 thousand more, probably some civilians in there, but these are military pagers to my knowledge so it’d be weird for it to hurt a bunch of random people, but it’s possible.
if you include the radio attack i think it’s like another 40 dead, and like 500 injured? Don’t quote me on it.
Hezbollah was using commercial grade pagers because they’re a militia. The purpose of pagers are to contact them when their off duty. Many of these pagers blew up in homes, grocery stores, and other public places. Many civilians were killed and most people injured were bystanders.
from what i can recall, and from the stats i’ve seen, these “explosions” seem more like “really bad pocket fires” more than anything to me, i could see it injuring people. Maybe two or three standing immediately nearby other people.
But considering this attack has only like 12 confirmed dead civilians or something, “many” seems a little excessive. I could see a few hundred getting injured though. Possibly a few cars/homes burning down. That might cause a few more.
ok so, did a bit of a check here, 12 civilians died. That’s where that number came from. 40 people died total, i think. At least that’s what wikipedia tells me. I don’t think it ever mentions how many civilians were injured directly, but assuming it follows the deaths, it’s somewhere between probably 500 and 1000 i would guess.
from what i can recall, and from the stats i’ve seen,
From what you can recall? I’m sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
It’s terrorism, plain and simple.
only 12 civilians
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
From what you can recall? I’m sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
this is relatively recent, and i barely care about the IP conflict at large, let alone some millitia in fucking lebanon. All i know is that pagers fucking exploded lmao.
As for the videos, i haven’t watched them, for what i feel like should be pretty obvious reasons. I don’t just watch gore content for fun or anything. I’m not a military analyst or claiming to be one lol. I’m just some dude on the internet who thinks exploding pagers is a rather odd way to go about things, although theoretically practical (as seen by the fact that they did it)
It’s terrorism, plain and simple.
maybe, again i know nothing about hezbollah, less about their goals, and even less about what their role in this conflict has been, other than a relatively minor altercation in some of the recent events.
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
how would you prefer i format it lmao? It’s the fucking english language, it’s semantically correct and provides all the needed context, 12 civilians died in this attack, that’s it. No more, no less, plain and simple. Especially compared to the sheer amounts of injured people, presumably including a lot of civilians, this would be EVEN more appropriate.
Also, there have been single mass shootings that have killed more people. There have most certainly been thousands of accidents (think infra related, cars, trains, etc) that have killed more people, and almost definitely, many many more individual accidental deaths.
12 people is not a whole lot in the total grand scheme of how many people die for reasons that shouldn’t really happen in the first place, it’s a lot of people that die every year. Also yeah wouldn’t these literally be rookie numbers? Seems a bit redundant to me.
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
This killed way less civilians than a traditional bombing that would have got the same Hezbollah fighters would have.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
Obviously, bomb the grocery stores and the shopping malls, then blame the people you were targeting for the collateral murder.
FFS, I’m old enough to remember when Obama drone striking a teenage boy was considered at least mildly controversial for liberals. Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
so technically, and semantically, it’s not cluster bombing, it’s a highly distributed form of micro bombing. Similar to the idea of “incendiary explosive laden bats” in ww2, and various other crackhead ideas the US military cooked up.
It’s funny how Israel made it a “normal” thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait…
It’s funny how Israel made it a “normal” thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
i don’t think they did normalize it though, russia has been indiscriminately hitting civilian places with artillery shells since the beginning of the invasion.
the soviet union has an even more aggressive history of this, scorched earth policies and such, which are almost definitely very old.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait…
yet another example, except i don’t even have to make the point myself!
in fact, i would argue the concept of minimizing human losses in war is a relatively recent advancement in social theory. That hasn’t exactly been a regular consideration throughout most of history, afaik.
You really should look up the definition of terrorism some time. If Hamas were the primary target, it’s not.
This says 37 dead, of whom Hezbollah have stated 31 were their fighters.
That’s a pretty clean ratio actually, considering the nature of Hesbollah.
Yeah. Two civilians dead for every one militant is fairly typical for asymmetric warfare.
Where are you getting those numbers?
Vague memory, but on looking it up, it’s even worse
I’m sure that’s true in general, but given the pagers and radios were being either held or worn by the target, I’d say this attack would have been much better.
sounds about right with what i’ve heard from other places.
Hezbollah is a political party with 18 parliamentary seats and thousands of public service workers on their payroll.
Saying these were “fighters” is akin to bombing an UNRWA center and claiming you killed 31 Hamas Terrorists.
so then why did they have pagers? I thought the pagers were specifically for millitant orders, or is the whole political party communicating in private via one way pagers?
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence, in a building for example, rather than like this.
so then why did they have pagers?
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
It’s underdeveloped because a terrorist organization fought a war to control the telecommunications system so they could leverage it more effectively for more terrorism.
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
obviously. It seems more akin to hamas than like, the green party in the US for example though. I wouldn’t be surprised if the primary purpose of the pagers was for military communications. I would expect any sort of political meetings to be done through a scheduled period, i could see notifications going out for these things. But that’s about it.
also, from what i’ve heard, they had phones previously, and recently got rid of them for the usage of these pagers, since the phones were probably bugged, with israeli intelligence anyway.
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
also i’m not sure this semantically counts as a “mass murder” usually those are done directly by an individual, on a group of people immediately in front of them. Maybe it could apply to this, but that seems like a stretch, especially considering this killed like 50 people total, which is a lot, but considering the amount of injuries and spicy pagers, that’s not very effective.
Would the US pullout of afghan that killed like 13 members of the military also count as mass murder? That’s more than a few, and probably more collective than this event.
Last I saw was 37 dead to over 3000 injuries
yeah that’s what wikipedia is saying. I’m unsure if this includes the radio attacks also though.
these are military pagers
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
yeah, that’s generally how products work. Even in the US military the government just walks up to a company and goes "can you make this? And if they say yes they pay them money, or times of war just go “hey i need you to make this”
the only difference here is that it’s not quite a formally established military, so it’s using off the shelf components and products, which is pretty common for these smaller groups.
although depending on the dealer, that dealer may have been the source of intrusion, so there’s that.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird. I doubt this was a highly specific attack. It would be a very, very odd way to do it, but then again this conflict has been nothing but odd, so i can’t really put it past them lol.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy. While everyone else is technically collateral, it’s probably considered to be beneficial to the cause. At least by israel.
targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird.
Not that weird, in the history of espionage. As another example, the CIA used a vaccine drive in Pakistan to target Osama bin Laden’s hideout.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy.
When your government believes neighboring ethnicities are “bug people” who need to be exterminated, collateral damage is viewed as a perk.
Not that weird, in the history of espionage. As another example, the CIA used a vaccine drive in Pakistan to target Osama bin Laden’s hideout.
“The program was ultimately unsuccessful. It led to the arrest of a participating physician, Shakil Afridi, and was widely ridiculed as undermining public health.”
hmm. Also it seems this was to check DNA from blood samples. So not really a good comparison here.
When your government believes neighboring ethnicities are “bug people” who need to be exterminated, collateral damage is viewed as a perk.
i mean that’s a potential reason, but these are also pagers meant for military communications purposes right? Why wouldn’t you want to target military personnel if you’re already gunning for one person. Besides these are probably more dangerous left unexploded than what currently happened. Imagine what would happen in 20 years when these make their way onto the second hand markets. You could very well accidentally kill innocent people then. You can still do it now, but since they’ve presumably all been deactivated, it’s probably not a huge concern.
There are definitely concerns over war crimes and shit, but unfortunately i’m not the ICC or ICJ so i can’t comment on that with authority.
No, it’s not. This was a very tactical way of striking an enemy that hides behind women and children.
This was a very tactical
Flinging a hand grenade into a crowd several thousand times over
But it’s okay because the crowd was full of Arabs aka Terrorists
1000 civilians had pagers sold to Hezbollah? Odd.
Can you confidently say you know the exact chain of custody of your cell phone?
Some killer gets a pager he doesn’t need, sells it to someone to make some cash, who gives it to their kid. Annnnd boom.
I buy mine offline so I’ll can for sure say, I’ve no fucking idea
No. Can you? How does OP know this about 1000 civilians? Don’t get me wrong. Fuck the Israeli government and it’s indiscriminate murder, but also fuck the lies. Speak truth.
These weren’t devices connected to any network, these were connected to a network run by Hesbollah. There was no reason for a civilian to have one of these pagers.
Terrorism is bad and we should condemn it. Unless it’s done by the United States in which case we should call it “anti -communism or defending democracy”. Or if it’s done by Israel we can call it “self-defense”.
Whatever Israel is doing can just be added to the United States. In the end, Israel is just the guard dog “defending democracy” in the Middle East. A somewhat rabid guard dog, but still owned and fed by the US.
I’d argue the pager explosions were just a different form factor of carpet bombing
I mean, not every individual has a pager on them necessarily. Not that it’s excused either way
Way to completely miss the point. Nobody is suggesting they use pagers in Gaza.
Hamas doesn’t use pagers, they use tunnels
Hamas uses phones, hence the “Where’s Daddy?” attack, which is not directed at tunnels. It’s more-or-less designed to hit civilians. The clue is in the name.
It’s targeting the militant based on his phone.
Yes, specifically militants who are fathers.
Unfortunately choices have consequences
Well, the children don’t have a choice, so I assume you’re talking about the choice to target the militants there and not in another place.
Their father has a choice. He should act in a way that’s in his children’s best interests but if he thinks attacking Israel is more important, then the consequences will be his to live with.
I agree with you it would be better if he were simply killed, though; that’s certainly the position Israel takes on the matter.
Wtf is that mean. Tunnels aren’t communication devices. Also Hezbollah famously has vast tunnel networks under southern Lebanon.
Wtf is that mean.
It means you have to actually go to the tunnels and fight, like the IDF is doing.
