- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
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- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
- hackernews@derp.foo
Heat pumps can’t take the cold? Nordics debunk the myth::By installing a heat pump in his house in the hills of Oslo, Oyvind Solstad killed three birds with one stone, improving his comfort, finances and climate footprint.
How is this a myth? Nobody with more than two braincells thinks that heat pump heaters don’t work in the cold.
If we start comparing everything that idiots think to a mythological mystery worthy of note, we’ll be here for an eternity.
This is not a myth but a fact, heat pumps don’t work at extreme cold temperatures.
What temperature exactly depends on the coolant used.
The efficiency also degrades at lower temperatures.
This is a random example of first hit I got on a heat pump.
https://heatnow.dk/produkt/altech-sirius-9-varmepumpe/
Notice the effect drops dramatically below -20 C°.
But this is a pump sold for the Scandinavian market, therefore it is of course designed to work at low temperatures. It doesn’t state the minimum, but I’m guessing it would be around -40 C°. Which is very good compared top older models.
But that’s not sufficient. As the temperature gets colder, it’s not just less efficient but produces much less heat. At the lower temperatures, it may not be able to keep up. Since it would be wasteful most of the year, heat pumps aren’t sized for that
IDK why you are downvoted, this is exactly true. The pump can only use it’s max power, and at max efficiency it generates 4-5 times that power in heat. But at temperatures below what the coolant allow, it only produce heat equivalent to the power put in, or a 4th to a 5th it’s max output.
Meaning the pump gets less efficient as it gets colder, and potentially will not be able to keep up in extreme conditions. As output goes down at lower temperatures, the same time demand for more heat increases.
The Heat pump shown however, does go very low, and it would be exceptional if the limit was reached. But just a decade ago, most heat pumps couldn’t go nearly that low, and lost efficiency quickly already below zero Celsius.
Despite that, the advantages with the newer heat pumps are still big enough for it to make good sense to switch to it for most, even Scandinavians.
Here in New England as far as I can tell, HVAC contractors tend to recommend hybrid systems, with a gas furnace as the secondary heat. However maybe that’s because gas is much cheaper than electricity.
Maybe there’s a contractor around who can give a better opinion on whether my experience is general
I never heard about that, here it’s very extreme if it’s below -20 C°, and new heat pumps can handle that, and remain pretty efficient.
I think the consensus here is to get rid of the gas. Despite we have it from the Nordsea, but the price structure is 100% dependent on the situation in Europe as a whole.
And Russia has fucked that up. So I don’t think anybody here is recommending gas for that reason. Although gas has already returned to be the cheapest option even here AFAIK, and prices have stabilized in part due to LNG from USA.
The heat pump I just had installed in SW Ontario hands over heating duty at -10C to the gas furnace
How much did it cost and what rebates are available? I’d love to say fuck Enbridge.
$12K for the heat pump and furnace. We’re expecting a $7K rebate (did the replacement before the audit because the old furnace died)
You could have gotten a whole home mini split from senville for less and it works down to -30. My heatpump from 15 years ago only did down to -10.
I found all the HVAC guys in my area were still really pushing the heatpump and furnace combo because that’s what they knew and not what was best, cheapest or most efficient.
How does a mini split system work? Does it plumb into traditional ducting?
Edit: just looked them up. Also found out that a friend out East with an older, oil heater house (no central ducting) was quoted a mini split for their place at over $20K
Our place is a four bedroom, two storey with a basement. I wonder if a mini split with the requisite air handlers would be cheaper
On a side note, we have a West facing room with large windows that I have to run a portable AC and space heater in as it’s temp is always extreme vs the rest of the house. A mini split just for that room would be great
They are honestly pretty easy to install if you are at all handy. The smaller ones (like for a room) have minimal electrical needs and are something you could get an electrician buddy to do for a case of beer if you buy the parts off amazon. Depending on the brand they are varying levels of DIY but nothing a 5 min youtube video can’t teach you. All in for my house it was 6k and a saturday afternoon to get it done.
How many mini split heat pumps and air exchangers did you put into your place
Overall, we should be net $5K with an installer because of rebates, but it’s good to know cheaper alternatives are available
My quote from the installers that were on the list of qualified installers for the rebate was always around 20K and up for a 3 head system. It was not worth paying the premium to get the rebate but I’m pretty handy on the tools.
I could break my system completely 2 times and still come out spending less when I bought a 3rd one compared to having a “Qualified Pro” install it for me. Especially since I now have all the hole saws, vacuum pump, flare kit, electrical is done etc, so there is no added expense beyond buying the unit now.
If you are not comfortable with gas fittings, electrical, cutting holes in the side of your house etc… It might be a different calculation.
The one I bought is under 4k CAD. https://senville.ca/36000-btu-tri-zone-mini-split-air-conditioner-sena-36hf-t/ and is medium DIY friendly.
You can get brands like Mr.Cool that are very simple to install.
Damn that ain’t cheap. What’s the expected savings per year in reduced gas/hydro?
Edit - how quick is it expected to pay itself off
Generally, don’t replace a working one that has any reasonable good time left in it.
If you’d expect it to last 15y, if it’s working fine after 14y, wait 2-3 more years at least.
I’m not sure, likely somewhere between 5-7 years.
We wouldn’t have done it if our furnace wasn’t shot. As a plus our A/C leaked it’s freon in the winter, so replacing it was an improvement as well.
It’s not that people think they don’t work in the cold, it’s that they are less suited for the areas or days of extreme cold.
Which is why you have a backup system. I have a net zero house in Saskatchewan, Canada. My Carrier heat pump will operate to -15C, and switches to electric heating coils in the air handler if it’s colder outside. It’s a rather extreme climate here, but in most other places, you’d be fine with some baseboard heaters as backup.
It really depends on the type of heat pump. Air-sourced heat pumps generally don’t produce heat below -30C and below -10C they generally lose enough efficiency that you’re better off using electric baseboard heating.
My air sourced heat pump keeps my house warm just fine in the Finnish winter where temperatures of -30C aren’t unheard of. I’m not exactly sure how it works, but I assume there’s coils that’ll produce the heat by electricity if nececcary, making it at worst as efficient as direct electric heating, which is what I’d use otherwise. Here like every other house has a heatpump like that and I don’t remember hearing anyone ever complaining that they’re not working.
It just comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of how the universe operates.
They say oh well it’s cold outside so how can it make it warm inside? They say this because they have absolutely no understanding of where the concept of a temperature comes from. They think that if it’s 10° outside then there is 10° of energy outside presumably out to some arbitrary distance, because some places are warmer, but they don’t really think that bit through. They don’t realise that’s not how it works.
MFers need a refresher on the concept of absolute zero.