I’m talking in the context of the “capitalist rules”. If you say the aforementioned sentence, you remove the responsibility of the player by dismissing the fact that the winner makes the rules.
PS: Doesn’t work for every context: if the player aims to change the rules because he doesn’t like them, he might see winning as a way to change them. “You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain” I guess…
That’s the entire point of the phrase, as far as how I’ve always interpreted it: don’t blame people for doing what’s best for them within a system they don’t control.
I can hate both. Morality is not subject to the whims of legislation. If you’re a billionaire, you’ve done something immoral. Playing “within the rules” does not absolve you of all morality.
The reason that doesn’t make sense, is billionaires are the only ones with the power to fix the economic system thru political donations.
The saying isn’t meant for your example, because they’re not just players. Their also the refs and the ones who wrote the rules for the game.
Like:
It is what is
That makes sense if said between prisoners about how shitty jail is. But if a prison guard beat an inmate and then said that, it doesn’t make sense.
Just because it’s not true 100% of the time for 100% of people doesn’t mean it’s worthless. By that logic no phrase should exist
I agree, I’ve said that about this phrase before! I can hate the player too. Not one of my favorite maxims.
Legislation is not the only game being referred to by this saying.
No, but it was OP’s example. Use it in any ither context, and I’ll tell you why the player is also a shitty person, regardless of the game.
Is it a guy being emotionally manipulative to have relationships with multiple women? Yeah, he’s a shitbag.
Is it a business resorting to underhanded, but profitable, practices to corner the market and boost income? Shitbags.
Is it the kid cheesing that one move to win every battle? Shit. Bag.
I mean, there are degrees of being a shitty person. But anyone saying “don’t hate the player, hate the game,” knows they are doing something shitty and are doing it anyway because they can.
If a game inevitably leads to billionaires unless you can count on all individuals being moral people, I take the liberty of hating the game that sets things up like that.
Any system can be abused. Amoral assholes will always exist. We have a system that rewards amoral assholes with wealth and power. Hate both the player and the game.
Of course you can hate both. But I think the phrase tries to make you focus on systemic issues instead of individualising them.
I can hate Elon Musk. But if he wasn’t there, someone else would fill the dipshit shaped hole the system leaves for him.
I understand the meaning, and you’re right that the system would just reward a different dipshit. But Elon is there, and he is a dipshit deserving of scorn. If it was someone else being a dipshit, then I’d hate them for being a dipshit.
The system should prevent people like Elon from amassing so much wealth and power. But even if it did, he would still be a dipshit.
Hate the game, hate the player, because both fucking suck.
We have a system that rewards people for producing value. You can see the effects of this system all around you, in the absolutely massive wealth that surrounds and serves you every day.
“Producing value.” Nobody produces a billion dollars worth of value. It takes thousands of people to produce their value, and they keep most of it by fucking over the people that work for them.
The system is fundamentally exploitative and cruel, leveraging fear and violence to extract value from poor people for pennies on the dollar.
“Value” is a socially loaded construct. Some people value golf courses more that a healthy ecosystem.
Someone else has to suffer for the wealth you enjoy.
Clearly these people are unfamiliar with the prisoner’s dilemma.
And what do you know about Nash Equilibriums?
After reading the Wikipedia page, absolutely nothing. It doesn’t seem to be a thing that actually applies anywhere.
I don’t know what to say. It’s taught in a typical American economics class nowadays. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkXI-zPcDIM
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
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Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Yeah, you tell 'em, bot! Good boy!
Legality is not the same as moral or ethical. The rules of life, civility, and good society are not preordained. Aka we make our own norms and values.
No, we don’t make our own norms and values. There’s no reason to believe that is any more flexible than our reliance on iron or potassium to survive.
I’m sorry, but fucking what.
In this particular context regulatory capture and political donations is the unseen bullshit of the claim. Corporations DO make the rules
The system is large and powerful. However, it’s perpetuated by individuals. Apathy is a lack of empathy…
You are literally defining the meaning of the phrase. That is not a shower thought.
Two hundred up votes, dont hate the player hate the game
Hate the upvoters lol
Well, I thought of it while taking a shower so…
Yes.
Just like “it is what it is”, that statement is a “thought terminating cliche” and that is what it’s doing.
Is labeling a phrase a “thought-terminating cliche”, a thought-terminating cliche?
Well I’d say it’s a hate-terminating cliche. As in, “Hey let’s stop thinking about how much we hate that guy, when he’s trying to feed his family”.
“Trying to feed your family” does not excuse everything. In fact I would say “they are just trying to feed their family” is almost on par with “it is what it is” as a thought terminating cliché.
Yes, but the game is the problem. That’s why the ecological footprint is problematic, it pushes the responsibility towards individuals rather than changing laws.
It occurs to me that a great many sayings exist for the speaker to self justify their own actions
I always reply that I hate both.
So you disagree with the saying? Why?
Because it implies that there are just two options while I think there is a third.
I don’t think it implies that. It just says “this is a better option than that”
Exactly. This or that. Two options.
The player’s job is to play optimally; the rules dictate what is and isn’t optimal play. Not just limited to capitalism, this concept is a big part of game theory.
Yeah, this phrase makes way more sense within the context of a game or game theory. For me, it goes back to fighting games or sports. People play to win in those settings. The rules are heavily defined, and the players must abide. These other examples are people misusing the phrase.
Yup, that’s why people say it. “I’m an arse hole, but what do you expect?”
My first thought after hearing that saying 20-something years ago was “the player perpetuates the game.”
If people refuse to play, there is no game to hate.
If people refuse to play, they die. The game evolved over millions of years.
There are many types of game. The saying is specifically designed to perpetuate one particular game.
In line with another phrase I hate, " If you can’t take me at my worst you don’t deserve me at my best". It is just the person saying it trying to cover their awful behavior.
It’s not related to that phrase at all
It’s related in the sense YaksDC would rather hate it than try to figure out why people say it
Learn to recognize systemic problems rather than personnel problems.
Playing the game is a choice.
Working to pay rent and stuff is a choice?
Duh. You could just lie down and die, but here you are choosing to eat and drink and sleep.
You silly goose, so fixated on surviving.
Referring to yourself as a “player” usually implies that your goal is to outdo everyone else, not just get by.
The one referring to themselves as a player, in this situation, is usually screwing over the person they’re talking to.
The ones whose contribution is figuring out whom to hate are the ones you gotta watch out for.
Everything is a choice.
True freedom is the realisation that you can literally do anything.
Is your heart beating a choice?
These are the shower thoughts I have. Got a whole ass manifesto cooking up there.
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The definition of fascism at the end of the day is “fuck you, I have mine, stop complaining because you are a loser”. Yes, fascism is the extreme end point of that view but ultimately that is what fascism is. Who cares what is fair, the losers are losers and the winners are winners and fascists are 0% interested in examining that any closer no matter how arbitrary or stupid the set of rules that determined the winners or losers are.
I hate the phrase “don’t hate the player, hate the game”. I’ll hate the player too lol. You know what playing a sport where bad behavior is technically possible and in the best interests of a player to do, but a player refuses to do it because of a love of the sport and the desire to be a good opponent? It is called good sportsmanship. Sports/videogames are miserable experiences when it is just ruthlessly competitive people playing who will exploit any advantage, fair or not and have zero interest in sportsmanship. Is there a broken mechanic or rule? These types of people will exploit it over and over and over and over again and just keep saying “don’t hate the player hate the game” even though it is them, the player, actively making a choice to make the experience miserable for everyone else.
I think you just made that definition of fascism up.
