Unless the judge has some knowledge that Baldwin either had intent, or was negligent in such a way as to contribute to the death, I’m not seeing what purpose it would serve to have him stand trial. He must feel absolutely terrible as it is, and my understanding is that it was not at all his fault.
Typically, there needs to be enough evidence for an indictment to stand trial. So far, there hasn’t been publicly released enough evidence to show that he was in anyway at fault.
Well he already has been indicted by a grand jury. And the standard for them is probable cause, which is a very low bar. Just that he held a gun when it went off and struck someone should meet that for manslaughter.
Well that’s not the argument you were making. He’s regrettably met the minimum standards for it to go to a proper court, though.
I don’t think it’s heavy-handed to think an incident can have multiple parties responsible. It’s very possibly that. I think a jury should determine if Baldwin legally should’ve done better, using evidence and witness testimony about what would normally happen.
Personally I think it’s much more the armorer’s fault. I agree with you. But I wasn’t there, I don’t know that we have all the information, or even that the information I’ve learned is completely accurate. A trial is the way to get all the information and certify it as true under penalty of perjury. Then the people who have been given every fact from both sides can make that determination.
it kinda is, although it would be fair to say i was being circumspect.
I don’t think it’s heavy-handed to think an incident can have multiple parties responsible. It’s very possibly that. I think a jury should determine if Baldwin legally should’ve done better, using evidence and witness testimony about what would normally happen.
i agree that multiple parties can be responsible for a thing, but i really feel these questions should have been adequately answered (and have) during the investigations. unless there’s a pile of evidence that hasn’t been made public (which is possible, i admit), then this all seems like so much theater.
you raise good points though, and i realize that we’re debating opinions here, not strictly the facts, so i’m not really trying to convince you of anything-- just to express my position.
The purpose is to prosecute him for the crime he has been charged with. That charge is Involuntary manslaughter, which explicitly means he was negligent in a way that lead to the death of another person. The purpose of having him(or literally anyone) stand trial in the American justice system is (supposed) to examine the evidence and determine if it supports the charges against the (presumed innocent) defendant. You don’t get let off the hook for your mistakes just because you ‘feel absolutely terrible’ about it. Your understanding of fault in this situation is incorrect.
He was negligent but not in his position as the actor holding the weapon. My understanding is he is partly responsible for deciding to choose a non-union safety team that lead to the death.
Actually… Both. In regular Firearm handoff protocols Actors have a responsibility to uphold on their end. If everything is done to spec it is impossible to fire a live round from a firearm. Some small obstruction in the barrel getting missed and propelled might be in the realm of reasonable but part of the process of handoff requires a mini briefing on handoff of the weapon where each round is checked over where the actor can see and only authorized people are allowed to handle weapons at all. Been standard since the Brandon Lee death on “The Crow”.
Baldwin took the gun from a person on set whom everyone would have known wasn’t supposed to be handling it and didn’t insist on a check. In our industry actors are briefed every time they accept a role that it is their partial responsibility to make sure those checks are done because it is not just a safety thing, it’s a liability issue if you harm someone. If a check is missed as an actor you are supposed to flag it and refuse the unsafe handoff to clear you of any potential liability or after the fact regrets…
Thing is this protocol has ever been throughly tested in a court setting. The last time anyone was killed by a bullet on a set was the cause of the massive change to the industry standard protocol in a mass concerted effort to do a “never again” style pledge which basically worked for 30 years straight. The other notable gun death was an actor who killed himself with a blank by pointing the gun at his own noggin and pulling the trigger which which was something he was expressly not supposed to do for a scene, he just did it on his own without anybody’s sign off.
This industry sea change in part is designed to exonerate Productions from negligence charges like what happened on The Crow but it also made it one of the most well respected industry protocols as the Lee death basically became one of the industry’s cautionary tale that lingers being retold to each new generation of crew. While non-union sets tend to be less regimented it is known fact that concerns of gun safety issues were already flagged and bought to production by the concerned Rust crew and no motion was made to change. Potentially Baldwin as part of a group may have directly ignored further appeals to firearm related safety prior to the shooting. This isn’t the Brandon Lee situation over again - the industry now is a whole new ball game.
(Edit : Forgot to mention that the Rust crew had almost a full beat for beat dry run of the incident a few days before the incident where Baldwin’s stunt double discharged two live rounds after being handed a gun that he was told was “cold”… How one ignores that kind of wake up call I’ll never know.)
I read some more comments and I agree, I was too easy to convince that the actor doesn’t bear responsibility.
I also liked another comment just discussing that it was a real gun, regardless of on set or off. Like anyone else handling a firearm in any other situation, the actor holding it is responsible for checking if it is loaded before pulling the trigger and for ensuring nobody is in the path of any bullet.
Unless the judge has some knowledge that Baldwin either had intent, or was negligent in such a way as to contribute to the death, I’m not seeing what purpose it would serve to have him stand trial. He must feel absolutely terrible as it is, and my understanding is that it was not at all his fault.
Trials are the thing we do that allow juries/judges to come to those conclusions.
Typically, there needs to be enough evidence for an indictment to stand trial. So far, there hasn’t been publicly released enough evidence to show that he was in anyway at fault.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/alec-baldwin-indicted-grand-jury-involuntary-manslaughter/story?id=104954728
Well he already has been indicted by a grand jury. And the standard for them is probable cause, which is a very low bar. Just that he held a gun when it went off and struck someone should meet that for manslaughter.
I know, but I think that indictment should have been thrown out after the firearms coordinator was convicted. This seems heavy-handed and unfair.
Well that’s not the argument you were making. He’s regrettably met the minimum standards for it to go to a proper court, though.
I don’t think it’s heavy-handed to think an incident can have multiple parties responsible. It’s very possibly that. I think a jury should determine if Baldwin legally should’ve done better, using evidence and witness testimony about what would normally happen.
Personally I think it’s much more the armorer’s fault. I agree with you. But I wasn’t there, I don’t know that we have all the information, or even that the information I’ve learned is completely accurate. A trial is the way to get all the information and certify it as true under penalty of perjury. Then the people who have been given every fact from both sides can make that determination.
it kinda is, although it would be fair to say i was being circumspect.
i agree that multiple parties can be responsible for a thing, but i really feel these questions should have been adequately answered (and have) during the investigations. unless there’s a pile of evidence that hasn’t been made public (which is possible, i admit), then this all seems like so much theater.
you raise good points though, and i realize that we’re debating opinions here, not strictly the facts, so i’m not really trying to convince you of anything-- just to express my position.
The purpose is to prosecute him for the crime he has been charged with. That charge is Involuntary manslaughter, which explicitly means he was negligent in a way that lead to the death of another person. The purpose of having him(or literally anyone) stand trial in the American justice system is (supposed) to examine the evidence and determine if it supports the charges against the (presumed innocent) defendant. You don’t get let off the hook for your mistakes just because you ‘feel absolutely terrible’ about it. Your understanding of fault in this situation is incorrect.
He was negligent but not in his position as the actor holding the weapon. My understanding is he is partly responsible for deciding to choose a non-union safety team that lead to the death.
Actually… Both. In regular Firearm handoff protocols Actors have a responsibility to uphold on their end. If everything is done to spec it is impossible to fire a live round from a firearm. Some small obstruction in the barrel getting missed and propelled might be in the realm of reasonable but part of the process of handoff requires a mini briefing on handoff of the weapon where each round is checked over where the actor can see and only authorized people are allowed to handle weapons at all. Been standard since the Brandon Lee death on “The Crow”.
Baldwin took the gun from a person on set whom everyone would have known wasn’t supposed to be handling it and didn’t insist on a check. In our industry actors are briefed every time they accept a role that it is their partial responsibility to make sure those checks are done because it is not just a safety thing, it’s a liability issue if you harm someone. If a check is missed as an actor you are supposed to flag it and refuse the unsafe handoff to clear you of any potential liability or after the fact regrets…
Thing is this protocol has ever been throughly tested in a court setting. The last time anyone was killed by a bullet on a set was the cause of the massive change to the industry standard protocol in a mass concerted effort to do a “never again” style pledge which basically worked for 30 years straight. The other notable gun death was an actor who killed himself with a blank by pointing the gun at his own noggin and pulling the trigger which which was something he was expressly not supposed to do for a scene, he just did it on his own without anybody’s sign off.
This industry sea change in part is designed to exonerate Productions from negligence charges like what happened on The Crow but it also made it one of the most well respected industry protocols as the Lee death basically became one of the industry’s cautionary tale that lingers being retold to each new generation of crew. While non-union sets tend to be less regimented it is known fact that concerns of gun safety issues were already flagged and bought to production by the concerned Rust crew and no motion was made to change. Potentially Baldwin as part of a group may have directly ignored further appeals to firearm related safety prior to the shooting. This isn’t the Brandon Lee situation over again - the industry now is a whole new ball game.
(Edit : Forgot to mention that the Rust crew had almost a full beat for beat dry run of the incident a few days before the incident where Baldwin’s stunt double discharged two live rounds after being handed a gun that he was told was “cold”… How one ignores that kind of wake up call I’ll never know.)
I read some more comments and I agree, I was too easy to convince that the actor doesn’t bear responsibility.
I also liked another comment just discussing that it was a real gun, regardless of on set or off. Like anyone else handling a firearm in any other situation, the actor holding it is responsible for checking if it is loaded before pulling the trigger and for ensuring nobody is in the path of any bullet.
He was the employer and he fostered the conditions that led to a death. Something we truly need to penalize.
Not whataboutism, but why they he’ll don’t we pursue corporations this vigorously when their bad conditions get people killed?
THOUGHT CRIME DETECTED STAY WHERE YOU ARE CITIZEN FOR MANDATORY CORPORATE THOUGHT RETRAINING