It’s curious they always highlight the
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome
I’m glad more hostages are free, but for me it doesn’t sit well the result… 200 people dead to save 4. At least the IDF are improving, luckily this time they didn’t kill the hostages.
Who is organizing these rescue operations? Homelander?
Are semitic people white? If so, so are the Arabs.
Hamas kidnap kills then kidnap a bunch of israeli people hide them among civilians and within even their refugee camps IDF frees some of them Lots of civilian casualties Pro-Pal peeps, oh no, look what the IDF did
I’m glad the hostages were saved, and can’t wait for hamas to lose.
Israel is committing war crimes, so of course it is white, duh!
This echo chamber doesn’t want to hear about the fact that Hamas is a murderous terror group that intentionally endangers Palestinian civilians to further its religious and political cause.
Because it is victim blaming bullshit to justify the genocide against Palestinians. Whatever Hamas is doesn’t justify the atrocities committed by Israel especially since Oct. 7 but also the Decades before. Did you know more than 500 Palestinians were murdered in the Westbank since Oct. 7? There is no Hamas there, but now that the Israeli fascists can get away with it, they enjoy their impunity as they murder, rape and pillage.
You are right but that does work both ways.
Whatever fucked things Hamas has done, is not a blank cheque for Israel to murder innocent people.
While at the same time
Whatever fucked things Israel has done, is not a blank cheque for Hamas to murder innocent people.
No one’s justifying Hamas here what the fuck are you smoking??
There was a ceasefire on Oct. 6. Then Hamas and other Palestinian fighters started the present conflict in Gaza on Oct.7. I won’t recount how because Lemmy doesn’t like to hear when what they perceive to be a victim group commits unthinkable atrocities. But then they took these hostages back into Gaza, and hid them in tunnels under civilian infrastructure. This is fact. Hamas started the present war, but everyone only blames Israel. I believe this qualifies as what you call victim blaming bullshit.
So you’re fine with 200+ dead civilians to save 4 hostages?
Hamas is already willing to agree to the US peace plan, so the only thing preventing the rest of the hostages making it to their homes is political will, and with much less risk.
It’s only 200 people. How many people am I worth? 200 kidnappers? 199kidnapers and I kid? 198 kidnappers, 2 kids, 3 moms, 5 elders and cousin Vinny? Couldn’t they just get the victims out and catch the kidnappers instead?
They even lost one of their own soldiers in the process
And killed 3 other hostages in the massacre
But to the IDF the 200 people killed weren’t people. So the math maths.
Obviously it’s good to minimize collateral damage and casualties wherever possible. But I see no issue with this result.
If a country values the lives of their citizens they will rescue them and spill any blood needed. Conversely, a nation that values its cut will try to minimize the harm that could come to them and keep hostages far from where they are.
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I agree, Hamas is a criminal terrorist organization that does not value the lives of Palestinians. I mean a criminal terrorist organization hiding hostages amongst civilians in a heavily populated area they are worse than the example you gave because they intentionally put those civilians at risk of harm.
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I see, so the civilians who have had their friends and families killed, been violently forcibly kidnapped, had their taken from their family friends and homes abused, starved and raped don’t deserve their freedom?
It depends - what is their nationality, religion and skin colour?
The ones that are victims of Hamas.
If a terrorist holds hostages in amongst hundreds of INNOCENT PEOPLE it’s fine to massacre them all. When you could have just got all your hostages released by accepting peace. Cool moral compass you have there
If it was my family or countrymen being held then absolutely the military should do what is necessary to secure their release.
If it were my country, I would want peace. Israel will never have peace until Palestine has peace. That will never be gained via military means.
Not with that attitude.
What part did you disagree with?
What if Hamas is spilling blood because they value their citizens and land?
because they value their citizens
Hiding hostages in a highly populated residential area, without any means of self defense or even evacuation safe zones, is not called valuing the citizens. It’s called using them as leverage, something terrorists love doing to civilians.
What did the spilling of blood on oct.7 did to Palestinians? Make them live in hell for over 8 months? Make thousands die? And for what, for massacring Israelis? What do you think Hamas has done in oct.7 that would make you think they “value their citizens” - coz to me it only looks like they just wanna kill jews.
What makes you think they don’t think that? In the end palastine was occupied by Israelis. It said a good government spills blood for its citizen, how can you be so god damn stubborn to not see that this point holds just as valid for palastine and Hamas. Of course you can cherry pick one thing that is not protecting citizen but I believe you can do the same thing with Israel. Like the US is constantly fucking up its own people, I’m sure you can cherry pick an event in Israel too. How much thought went into the citizens as they came up with the idea to plant Israel in the middle of a Jewish hate triangle where they are threatened and attacked on a so regular basis, they need stuff like the fucking Iron Dome in their cities?
I’m struggling with everything on this article. On the one hand anytime a hostage has been freed, that’s good news. On the other, at what cost. 40 000 dead. That’s the easy stat. Amputations are also incredibly high. Most of them kids and performed without anesthetic. This is the first time the IDF has rescued hostages. So I’m sitting here with my initial feeling of ‘oh, that’s good news’ ,and then I think about the wider picture and context, and it doesn’t seem so good anymore.
And half a dozen months ago they could have had a ceasefire to have them released, along with the ones that STILL aren’t released.
Nah, that was the one that Egypt fucked up. There had not been an actual agreed upon hostage transfer since the first one. Hamas also won’t give actual information on the hostages. This whole thing is just war crimes the whole way down.
“we don’t negotiate with terrorists” and that stance is “non-negotiable.” If only these terrorists would just stop and do what we want.
Well from the other side the IDF are the terrorists, since they’re terrorising Gaza indiscriminately.
So you think we should negotiate with terrorists? Give them something to make them stop what they’re doing today, and they definitely won’t commit more terrorism later in the hope of getting more things later.
Maybe just stick to eating ass, Adam.
Spain did successfully negotiate with ETA, and there is no more ETA today. Colombia’s government negotiated with the FARC, and the immense majority of the FARC have gotten peacefully integrated in their country’s parliamentary system.
If I looked into those organizations, I would bet they were probably at the point of talking reasonable concessions, and probably resembled a proper government, albeit radical or militant.
Hamas is not at that point.
Hamas is not at that point.
So, how many bombs still need to be dropped on Palestine to get them there?
That would require Hamas to care about Palestinians. Their leadership is a bunch of wealthy shitheads living it up in the UAE. They hold a dictatorship over Palestine and refuse to have elections.
To actually get Hamas there, you probably need to target the rich people giving orders.
Maybe you’re right, the world tries to negotiate with israel all the time to no avail.
I wouldn’t negotiate with Israel either
Maybe the Palestinians themselves devalue their own lives compared to Israeli lives. Just look at when they agreed to a ceasefire and traded hostages for prisoners: each hostage was worth multiple prisoners released by Israel.
This is also noticeable when Hamas use their own population as human shields, exemplified by when they hide their soldiers and weapons in hospitals and schools. Or when they blend in with civilians on purpose by not using any combatant uniform like the IDF do. They really don’t care for their own civilians. These are only useful for acting as human shields and, if they’re killed or injured, strike a pose for NatGeo-style photos in their attempts to appeal to western sentiment.
Maybe the Palestinians themselves devalue their own lives compared to Israeli lives.
You should just stop right there. If your logic depends on saying “they actually don’t value their lives as much as others” then please stop and ask “what the hell is wrong with yourself?”. People who think like this probably value their life least of all. /s
When I see how easily the Hamas uses their own population as sacrifices, I have doubts they really value their lives. Remember: the Gazan population elected the Hamas with more than 60% of the votes. It’s not too farfetched to say a significant part of the Gazans think like the Hamas in terms of sacrifice, and by extension, how they value their lives.
Just know that this accusation you make is a confession of your views and you should investigate what that says about yourself on your own.
You don’t believe me? Those who are immersed in islamist ideology think quite differently from people of christian heritage (even if they’re not christian themselves, but they inherit a set of values). For the islamists, self-sacrifice if a good thing if done for a holy cause. That’s what motivated the plane terrorists from 9/11: their religion made them believe that what they were doing was just. And as a reward, they’d have the company of multiple virgins in paradise.
In the western countries, due to the inherited christain values, people value life and reject self-sacrifice. Suicide is considered a sin, because the person is throwing away the body given by God, which is a holy thing. That’s why the USA and other west-aligned countries pressure Israel to preserve the life of innocent Gazans: that’s what best aligns with their moral values. If a bank is being robbed with the use of hostages, the police will do its best to preserve the life of the innocent, even negotiate with the robbers if necessary.
That’s a way of thinking that’s the polar opposite of the muslims. For them, if the cause is holy, self-sacrifice is allowed and encouraged. They’re indoctrinated in these values since they’re children. What the Hamas is doing is exploiting the western values for their benefit. That’s why they took hostages, because they knew it would be a huge leverage against Israel. And that’s why they’re always flaunting the number of casualities (which are obviously inflated, because it helps their goals), in an attempt to reach the western countries’ moral values and turn it into pressure for Isreal accept an indefinite ceasefire agreement, even a bad one.
Consider this: if the roles were reversed: Gaza had immense millitary strenght and Israel was the poor country, the Gazans would invade Isreal in a heartbeat and would care much less about Isrealli innocent civilians: for them the cause is holy, so it is justified to kill indiscriminately.
Three months ago the IDF also rescued 3 hostages by killing many civilians. They bomb entire neighbourhoods to rubble as a distraction mechanism for their teams to go in.
They bomb entire neighbourhoods to rubble as a distraction mechanism for their teams to go in.
Those human shields had it coming. /S or I guess they’re human bait now?
Imagine how much resources hamas spent on keeping these hostages and how many lives could be saved if they just released them all before the ground operation was started.
Netanyahu said since November that even if all hostages were released he was going to invade anyway and not stop the war.
Even more reason to release them all then, and I’m appalled by how hamas was that stupid to not realize that.
Ahh yes, give away all your leverage when your enemy already stated he will murder you all.
You should become a negotiator.
They don’t have any leverage, because the people calling the shots in Israel (and to be clear, that is the likes of Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, who want effectively no Arabs river to sea, and hence Netanyahu, who I think would do just about any atrocity no matter how abhorrent just to stay in power and out of jail) value the pretext to invade far more than they value the lives of the hostages.
So the hostages do not actually give Hamas any leverage over Israel - hence why Israel is not willing to agree to anything. Hamas should not have taken civilians hostage or targeted civilians in the first place, and they should release them. That is still an ongoing war crime, even if it is overshadowed by bigger ones being perpetrated by the Israeli side.
Hamas never had a chance of winning on military might.
The best chance for a good outcome for the Palestinian people is through raising awareness of the plight of the Palestinians, resulting in international pressure. The pressure against Israel arising now is because of the severity of Israel’s war crimes, while Hamas’ war crimes are one of the key talking points used to justify not taking action. Hamas could help Palestine win the information space war by taking the high road; winning a military war is futile for them.
While it is not fair to punish Palestinian civilians for the war crimes of Hamas just because the interests of Palestinian civilians are aligned to Hamas’ goals, there are many people who don’t see it that way. Palestinian statehood (or a non-apartheid one-state solution) would now get far more international support if the Palestinian militants shifted to peaceful resistance.
What leverage? You’re saying hostages are needed to save hamas members? Well that seems to be working pretty well huh? Remind me again why they were taken in the first place?
You should become a negotiator.
What negotiations? It was a perfect opportunity to show that your cause is a good one, and not to Israel. Instead they kept the hostages… For what purpose? To have “leverage”? Well let’s see how that will help them with anything. Maybe there will be more news about released hostages that you could again associate with Israel trying to release its civilians, not with hamas doing right things.
This guy will start calling all of us hamas soon
Just think about how many lives could have been saved if Israel worked towards a two state solution
Yeah. October 7 surely didn’t make them start working on that, did it?
Exactly!! Israel was just peacefully bulldozing the homes of those dirty Palestinians and pushing them out of their land and making sure that they weren’t too greedy and stopping them from eating too much food during these days of obesity 😇. Then Hamas had the disgusting choice of using violence against blessed israel? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you am I right?
I repeat: that violence did not serve the purpose and it was never meant to. It’s useless to justify their actions based on their sufferings alone. It’s obvious hamas never seeked anything except violence.
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Start reading what you’re replying to, please.
Yes because Oct 7 happened apropos of nothing
You understand. It happened apropos, not in order to solve problems.
Use your words
Trying my best as a non-native. Feel free to hate my way of speaking.
Just think about how many lives could have been saved if Israel
worked towards a two state solutioncared about human lives
they could have had all the hostages if they didn’t reject the ceasefire proposal…
Do you have any credible sources where Hamas made that promise? Because from what have read they never wanted to agree to releasing them
… And massacred a bunch of Palestinians but they’re not white so who cares amirite???
There is a majority of Mizrahi jews (ie: not white) in Israel as compared to “white” jews, mostly from European countries.
So your comment is fucking stupid.Not really. You’re responding to something I didn’t claim. But enjoy tilting at that strawman
Great news. Not sure if genocide of the Gaza population is necessary for that.
It is not.
This article doesn’t mention if anyone was killed in the raid, Hamas or civilians.
Israeli forces returned fire, including with airstrikes, he said. An Israeli special forces commander was killed during the operation, a police statement said.
Just casually bombing city areas jfc
[Israel rescues 4 hostages in raid Gaza officials say killed over 200 ] (https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-06-08-24?ref=upstract.com)
Edit: the number is now 274 Palestinians killed in this operation:
How an Israeli raid freed 4 hostages and killed at least 274 Palestinians in Gaza
Holocaust? Wasn’t ‘genocide’ drastic enough anymore?
I know right? I’ve always thought calling it genocide a flagrant exxageration. When I think of genocide, it comes to mind images of some evil dictator using poison gas in a population, chemical weapons, an atomic bomb, etc.
To be a true genocide, it must be an indiscriminate elimination of the population of a nation or an ethnicity. It’s not the case of Isreal, which is targeting specifically the militants of Hamas. Just because there are civilian colateral damage in the process does not make it a genocide automatically, because the civilians are not what the IDF is after. They’re after Hamas militants. Gaza has a very high population density, and the Hamas militants don’t use any uniform to differentiate them from the civilians. They do it on purpose to make the IDF hesitant, and get them by surprise. They hide themselves in buildings that they know the IDF would be hesitant to attack, like hospitals, schools and mosques. They play dirty, and then cry genocide when the IDF respond to their missiles sent to Israel’s territory.
When I think of genocide, it comes to mind images of some evil dictator using poison gas in a population, chemical weapons, an atomic bomb, etc.
That’s just lack of education on your part, though. Neither the Cambodian Genocide nor the Rwandan Genocide would be a genocide according to you, but in reality these were two of the worst genocides in the last 50 years.
Come to think of it, neither would the Bosnian Genocide according to you, because it mainly targeted males for execution.
then cry genocide
The people who are “crying genocide” are those of us in the international community who know what a geenocide is, including experts in international law.
If Israel really wanted the destruction of all Gazans, they’d not send their soldiers to a prolonged war. They’d rather send their own missiles and everything would be destroyed in seconds. They have that capability, but they didn’t use it. If it’s really a genocide as you suggest, it’s the dumbest one of all time, because they’re risking their soldiers when they can attack safely and decisively from a distance.
It’s possible that they are not flagrantly killing civilians in that manner but are just looking the other way more than they might normally do because they are Palestinians and care less about collateral damage due to race.
I’m glad you’re the UN with the internationally agreed definition.
Oh. Wait.
And this time IDF didn’t shoot them!
The Israeli military had US support in rescuing four captives from Gaza in a “complex daytime operation” in Nuseirat that killed over 200 Palestinians.
The Palestinian government media office in Gaza said the death toll from Israel’s attack on central Gaza had reached at least 210, with 400 more wounded.
The Palestinian health ministry confirmed that a large number of dead and wounded Palestinian had arrived at Al-Aqsa Martyrs hospital. It said that most of them were children and women.
"I came from the camp to here in the hospital on foot. I can’t describe how we fled. I saw dead children and body parts strewn all over as we fled. No one was able to assist them. I saw an elderly man killed on a animal-drawn cart.
“Nuseirat was being annihilated. It was hell.”
210 people killed 4 rescued. Mission accomplished everyone. Don’t forget to thank Biden for his direct military involvement in this operation.
Many people are saying if it had been Trump he would have gotten the hostages out in 24 hours. It would have been a perfect operation. The best you’ve seen.
50 civilians killed indiscriminately per 1 hostage freed. And that’s not counting everyone that’s already been killed in this war.
I think anyone with a shred of morality is heavily conflicted by this. Saving hostages? Great. Killing 50x as many people as those saved? Not great. Not great at all.
It naturally leads itself to the question we’re all thinking – was it worth it?
And I think many of us have the same answer, although we may not like it – no. It pains me to say it, but it would’ve been better to let them stay hostage for longer while developing a plan which wouldn’t kill civilians.
Unfortunately, the alternate option was not “let them stay hostage a while longer”. It was “let the hostages die”. And maybe that would have been the more ethical call. But let’s not delude ourselves that they could have been kept alive any other way.
Or you know, a hostage swap. But let’s hope everyone forgot about that.
Genuinely a nice result, but this war is fucking atrocious and totally elective.
Nice result except for the 200+ people they reportedly killed to achieve it.
[More than 200 Palestinians killed in Israel’s operation to free hostages, UN say ] (https://www.itv.com/news/2024-06-08/palestinian-gaza-hostage-rescue-attack-killed)
Edit:
How an Israeli raid freed 4 hostages and killed at least 274 Palestinians in Gaza
i hope amongst the 200 killed,majority are hamas and not innocent people.
if there are innocent people,i hope justice prevails. if they are hamas,good riddance.
They saved the pretty young white girl, yay!
Her mother is Chinese.
Ah, that explains why I find her so attractive.
Nice work IDF. Four alive hostages rescued is good news.
It is good.
I wonder how many other innocent people being murdered justifies saving other innocent people.
Can you kill 100 to rescue 4. What about 1000 or 10000.
The fact is they could have accepted any number of ceasefire deals to release these hostages, but they chose to keep murdering more people and further creating the next generation of Hamas signups.
The fact is they could have accepted any number of ceasefire deals to release these hostages, but they chose to keep murdering more
And the fact that hamas could have released them all before the operation was even started.
So we agree Hamas and the IDF are terrorists. And you think a genocide is an acceptable response.
I don’t think it matters how you call them. If you want to label a party bad by calling them terrorists - it’s your choice.
I know that Israel is able to take care of their own people. Hamas is incapable of that and is willing to kill Palestinians in order to bring any damage to another party. It’s understandable that Israel started the ground operation (maybe not how it goes now, but still). It’s illogical to say that hamas did the right thing with the October 7 events, already because it was obviously useless for their cause.
You’re just being disingenuous now.
How is anybody to take care of the Palestinian people when they essentially live in an apartheid state. They have been oppressed by the Israeli government you’re defending for decades now.
Go have a look at maps over the decades of how much land has been stolen. Regular bombing etc.
You could read some Finkelstein on the subject, you know the Jewish expert who has researched it most of his life.
Edit: Notice how I said both sides were terrorists and you only want to focus on one side. That’s called bias my friend.
when they essentially live in an apartheid state.
Didn’t prevent them from being able to take care of Palestinians instead of building missiles.
Israeli government you’re defending for decades now.
What
Go have a look at maps over the decades of how much land has been stolen
Yeah, and how exactly hamas changes that?
Notice how I said both sides were terrorists and you only want to focus on one side.
All I see is people focusing on calling Israel a monster.
At what cost?
210 Palestinians killed according to the news reports.
Edit: 274 Palestinians killed.
How an Israeli raid freed 4 hostages and killed at least 274 Palestinians in Gaza
Only in this particular operation. But the war had to get this far for them to conduct it. So the cost is exponentially higher.
The big question on all of our minds – was this worth it?
No. It probably wasn’t.
If you were one of the parents/relatives of the kidnapped israelis, would you still think it was not worth it?
If a cease-fire with a prisoner exchange was literally on the table but rejected by Israel, I’d pick the option where a bunch of innocent blood isn’t spilled to secure a release.
So, the ideal solution for you is a return to the status quo, but with the Hamas getting away with it. Plus a bonus: multiple prisoners released just for returning the hostages to their homes, from where they should never have been kidnapped from in the first place. And, the cherry in top, the Hamas still having the capability of launching missiles whenever it pleases. What a great deal! (for the Hamas only, of course)
No, but I’m fully aware I’m a hypocrite there. I think most people are when it comes to their loved ones. If I was family of the hostages, I wouldn’t care how many innocent people died to get them back. I’d support the IDF.
If I was the family of the nearby Palestinians, I wouldn’t care about the hostages, and I’d let them die if it meant my family would be safe. I’d support Hamas.
This is why geopolitics can’t be personal. The best decision is not one that you insert yourself into, because you have a much higher threshold for acceptable collateral if it’s your own family on the line.
At the same time though, this is also a lesson in why a ceasefire is crucial. You put yourself into everyone’s shoes, and you understand why this needs to end. Everyone’s families and loved ones are dying or in captivity, and it’s perpetuating a cycle of violence. It needs to end. Israel has the power to withdraw from Gaza and pursue purely diplomatic means, and it should.
In the end of the day, it’s the law of the strongest. It’s no accident that Israel hoard a lot of weapons of war and build defensive systems like the Iron Dome. It’s a show of power for a very simple goal: deterrence. I don’t think Israel really though of using all their weapons, but just having them makes every one the enemy nations that surround them to think twice before attacking them. Well, Hamas did not think twice. And they cannot say they didn’t saw it coming.
Israel accepting a ceasefire deal would be nice for saving lives and all, but would leave them vulnerable for future missile attacks from Hamas. A nation will always think of its own citizens first. Maybe the Hamas already counted with this reaction of Israel, and though that other Arab countries would form a coalition to fight Israel simultaneously. Well, it didn’t pan out. Deterrence worked after all.
