At this point, what you’re saying is like telling a woman she shouldn’t have been there or wearing that, and ignoring the real issue with power here.
Cops largely are pathetic power-abusing shitheads who escalate at every possible opportunity. You should not have to cower to every whim and demand of a cop if you are not doing anything dangerous. Cops have lost any credibility to suggest that we should have to give a shit about every stupid fucking tiny thing they have an issue with.
Based on your argument, you could say you’ll only speak to a lawyer and you’re giving the cops an out to beat the shit out of you for not complying. Cops don’t understand non-violent approaches to solving any problem, and THAT is the problem to focus on.
Sure, fuck the police but I argue a white person or a black person is heading for a bad time if they act the way that he acted. I can’t speculate on this any more than anybody else on “what if” scenarios should Tyreek have been white, but if you create a situation where the cop does not feel safe (e.g. rolling up your 100% tinted windows against their instructions) then you are going to get an escalation from the police.
I don’t have any studies to hand, but isn’t the disparity between police responses to non-white vs white suspects a given at this point, in the US at least?
But lets look at your argument both ways.
On the one hand you’d be arguing that race disparity in police responses doesn’t exist at all and so wouldn’t apply here.
Or
Race disparity exists, but in this specific situation it doesn’t apply for some reason.
If that’s the case , id be interested in hearing why you think it doesn’t apply in this specific circumstance?
Neither of those sound plausible to me but i could be missing what your actual argument is entirely, in which case, would you mind explaining why it doesn’t fall in to the above categories?
It’s more the latter. I don’t argue that race disparity exists. I’m only arguing that Tyreek did not do any kind of favor to himself in how he handled the situation. I’m sorry he got pulled from his car and cuffed, but my reaction to the video was that he had this coming. Blatantly disobeying an officer’s requests and in a way that can lead the officer to feel unsure over his/her safety and perceived control of the situation is going to end poorly. This could easily happen to a white person.
It’s more the latter. I don’t argue that race disparity exists. I’m only arguing that Tyreek did not do any kind of favor to himself in how he handled the situation.
Agreed, but “didn’t do the most optimal thing in a given situation” isn’t the same as “deserved to be dragged out of his car”
Especially in a situation where it is known to be significantly more dangerous, regardless of behaviour, for someone of a more melanin-rich persuasion.
This confusion is easily resolved though, let’s clarify with a couple questions.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) should have received that level of response in that situation ?
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ?
I’m sorry he got pulled from his car and cuffed, but my reaction to the video was that he had this coming.
I’d personally view that as two opposing viewpoints, either you think he had it coming or you’re sorry it happened.
Blatantly disobeying an officer’s requests and in a way that can lead the officer to feel unsure over his/her safety and perceived control of the situation is going to end poorly.
And this is the crux of the issue, officers feeling unsafe and their level of perceived control is known to have a direct correlation to how reflective your skin is.
That doesn’t even account for the officers with a blatant racial bias.
So you can argue that point, but the threshold for where actions end up in poor outcomes is intrinsically linked to race, any argument you make is going need to account for that or it’s going to be perceived as missing a large chunk of the context.
Which is what is happening here.
This could easily happen to a white person.
That’s subjective but again, let’s clarify :
In these exact same circumstances, you’d expect a white person to be treated in the exact same way ?
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) should have received that level of response in that situation ?
As with any dispute, both parties can always strive for more, but I try to put myself in the cop’s situation. How long is long enough before you have to pull somebody who is clearly not cooperating from their car? Not following a lawful order during a traffic stop is a misdemeanor, which means you may be exiting your vehicle whether you like it or not.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ?
I am positive racism plays a part in policing. But I didn’t see anything in this that leads me to believe Tyreek’s skin color affected his outcome. I’m a white dude and I easily see this happening to me if I did what he did.
I’m sorry he got pulled from his car and cuffed, but my reaction to the video was that he had this coming.
I’d personally view that as two opposing viewpoints, either you think he had it coming or you’re sorry it happened.
They are not opposing or mutually exclusive viewpoints. I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions. I can be sorry for him but also unsurprised.
In these exact same circumstances, you’d expect a white person to be treated in the exact same way ?
Yes, I truly feel this way in these circumstances. Perhaps I’m a naive idiot, but I just didn’t sense that he was treated that unfairly given his actions.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) should have received that level of response in that situation ?
As with any dispute, both parties can always strive for more, but I try to put myself in the cop’s situation. How long is long enough before you have to pull somebody who is clearly not cooperating from their car? Not following a lawful order during a traffic stop is a misdemeanor, which means you may be exiting your vehicle whether you like it or not.
That’s not an answer to the question, that’s a reiteration of your previous stance.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ?
I am positive racism plays a part in policing. But I didn’t see anything in this that leads me to believe Tyreek’s skin color affected his outcome.
Given that answer i go back to my previous question of :
If you understand racism plays a part in policing, what makes you think this is the exception ?
I’m a white dude and I easily see this happening to me if I did what he did.
You are entitled to your opinion, but the overall statistics disagree with you.
Not in an individual instance sense, but in an overall sense. You might very well have this same thing happen, but it’s statistically much less likely.
I’d personally view that as two opposing viewpoints, either you think he had it coming or you’re sorry it happened.
They are not opposing or mutually exclusive viewpoints. I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions. I can be sorry for him but also unsurprised.
Now this is interesting, i wouldn’t consider “they had it coming” to be the same as “I’m unsurprised this happened” , one is very much assigning blame and the other is more neutral.
If you meant the latter, then sure, not mutually exclusive.
“I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions.” can easily be interpreted the same way as “I’m sorry he made the officer drag him out of his car but he totally deserved it”.
Yes, I truly feel this way in these circumstances. Perhaps I’m a naive idiot, but I just didn’t sense that he was treated that unfairly given his actions.
The point the article was making wasn’t that he was treated unfairly based on his actions, it was that the treatment he received was different (read: worse) because of his race.
That the treatment he received could be considered unfair for the situation isn’t the point.
A boy and a girl both steal an apple, they both get grounded, the boy is also banned from the shop.
“Well the girl still got grounded” doesn’t negate that the punishment wasn’t equal.
Same as “The boy deserved punishment” doesn’t negate that the punishment wasn’t equal.
If you truly understand that racism is a large problem in all aspects of policing, that isn’t naivety that’s wilful ignorance.
I’m tired of talking to you because you keep trying to put words in my mouth or creating alternate understandings for which I am clearly stating my opinion. So you can “win” based on my own exhaustion of your rhetoric against mine. I’ve stated my piece and do not desire to argue it further. I hope you have a nice day and despite my desire to end the discussion, I hope you can appreciate my opinion in at least some form. Good night.
I really can’t imagine thinking that no matter how disrespectful someone was during a traffic violation, that escalating to pulling someone out of the car and putting them in handcuffs is ok.
Office was never in any danger, he was actually surrounded by other officers. You should be able to disrespect an officer and that should not escalate being physically handled like that.
The expectation for a criminal in a criminal act is to have as much force as needed applied to them to get them to comply. The expectation of an asshole at a traffic stop should be to get his big ticket and keep moving.
If you don’t want to be called a boot licker, stop licking boots!
if you create a situation where the cop does not feel safe
You reach for your license ‘too fast’ - cop does not feel safe
Acorn falls on car - cop doesn’t feel safe
You are boiling water at home - cop does not feel safe
You are writhing in pain underneath their boot - cop does not feel safe
US cops are literally brainwashed into feeling like the public is a threat to them. They are wired to look for a reason to escalate.
Fine but those situations are not the same as “angry and noncooperative citizen disobeying my request and I can no longer see what is happening inside the vehicle.”
I would argue that this is actually the correct situation for a police officer to feel more concerned for their safety.
The fact that we need to be concerned for our safety at all while “disobeying” a cop is proof that they act too aggressively and with almost no accountability. Cops can start a gang and murder you and no one bats a fucking eye
Why would a guy in a McLaren, who already gave you his ID, raise suspicions that he might be trying to harm you by simply rolling his window up? This cop mentality that everyone is seconds away from ambushing them like they’re in Fallujah circa 2002 is absurd and drives a lot of this police brutality and overreaction. Don’t forget that these are paid professional government employees. It’s not the citizen’s job to coddle police and play into their own personal paranoia and delusions just to avoid getting beaten or shot.
I dunno, I’m way less terrified of the guy with a 40k watch in a 150k car than I would be in any other situation. Unless I was super jealous that this black dude was rich, and he didn’t show immediate respect to me. Then I might pull him out of his car despite having everything I need to write the citation and being in 0 danger literally surrounded by other officers.
At this point, what you’re saying is like telling a woman she shouldn’t have been there or wearing that, and ignoring the real issue with power here.
Cops largely are pathetic power-abusing shitheads who escalate at every possible opportunity. You should not have to cower to every whim and demand of a cop if you are not doing anything dangerous. Cops have lost any credibility to suggest that we should have to give a shit about every stupid fucking tiny thing they have an issue with.
Based on your argument, you could say you’ll only speak to a lawyer and you’re giving the cops an out to beat the shit out of you for not complying. Cops don’t understand non-violent approaches to solving any problem, and THAT is the problem to focus on.
Fuck the police.
Sure, fuck the police but I argue a white person or a black person is heading for a bad time if they act the way that he acted. I can’t speculate on this any more than anybody else on “what if” scenarios should Tyreek have been white, but if you create a situation where the cop does not feel safe (e.g. rolling up your 100% tinted windows against their instructions) then you are going to get an escalation from the police.
I don’t have any studies to hand, but isn’t the disparity between police responses to non-white vs white suspects a given at this point, in the US at least?
But lets look at your argument both ways.
On the one hand you’d be arguing that race disparity in police responses doesn’t exist at all and so wouldn’t apply here.
Or
Race disparity exists, but in this specific situation it doesn’t apply for some reason.
If that’s the case , id be interested in hearing why you think it doesn’t apply in this specific circumstance?
Neither of those sound plausible to me but i could be missing what your actual argument is entirely, in which case, would you mind explaining why it doesn’t fall in to the above categories?
It’s more the latter. I don’t argue that race disparity exists. I’m only arguing that Tyreek did not do any kind of favor to himself in how he handled the situation. I’m sorry he got pulled from his car and cuffed, but my reaction to the video was that he had this coming. Blatantly disobeying an officer’s requests and in a way that can lead the officer to feel unsure over his/her safety and perceived control of the situation is going to end poorly. This could easily happen to a white person.
Agreed, but “didn’t do the most optimal thing in a given situation” isn’t the same as “deserved to be dragged out of his car”
Especially in a situation where it is known to be significantly more dangerous, regardless of behaviour, for someone of a more melanin-rich persuasion.
This confusion is easily resolved though, let’s clarify with a couple questions.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) should have received that level of response in that situation ?
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ?
I’d personally view that as two opposing viewpoints, either you think he had it coming or you’re sorry it happened.
And this is the crux of the issue, officers feeling unsafe and their level of perceived control is known to have a direct correlation to how reflective your skin is.
That doesn’t even account for the officers with a blatant racial bias.
So you can argue that point, but the threshold for where actions end up in poor outcomes is intrinsically linked to race, any argument you make is going need to account for that or it’s going to be perceived as missing a large chunk of the context.
Which is what is happening here.
That’s subjective but again, let’s clarify :
In these exact same circumstances, you’d expect a white person to be treated in the exact same way ?
As with any dispute, both parties can always strive for more, but I try to put myself in the cop’s situation. How long is long enough before you have to pull somebody who is clearly not cooperating from their car? Not following a lawful order during a traffic stop is a misdemeanor, which means you may be exiting your vehicle whether you like it or not.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ?
I am positive racism plays a part in policing. But I didn’t see anything in this that leads me to believe Tyreek’s skin color affected his outcome. I’m a white dude and I easily see this happening to me if I did what he did.
They are not opposing or mutually exclusive viewpoints. I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions. I can be sorry for him but also unsurprised.
Yes, I truly feel this way in these circumstances. Perhaps I’m a naive idiot, but I just didn’t sense that he was treated that unfairly given his actions.
That’s not an answer to the question, that’s a reiteration of your previous stance.
Given that answer i go back to my previous question of :
If you understand racism plays a part in policing, what makes you think this is the exception ?
You are entitled to your opinion, but the overall statistics disagree with you.
Not in an individual instance sense, but in an overall sense. You might very well have this same thing happen, but it’s statistically much less likely.
Now this is interesting, i wouldn’t consider “they had it coming” to be the same as “I’m unsurprised this happened” , one is very much assigning blame and the other is more neutral.
If you meant the latter, then sure, not mutually exclusive.
“I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions.” can easily be interpreted the same way as “I’m sorry he made the officer drag him out of his car but he totally deserved it”.
The point the article was making wasn’t that he was treated unfairly based on his actions, it was that the treatment he received was different (read: worse) because of his race.
That the treatment he received could be considered unfair for the situation isn’t the point.
A boy and a girl both steal an apple, they both get grounded, the boy is also banned from the shop.
“Well the girl still got grounded” doesn’t negate that the punishment wasn’t equal.
Same as “The boy deserved punishment” doesn’t negate that the punishment wasn’t equal.
If you truly understand that racism is a large problem in all aspects of policing, that isn’t naivety that’s wilful ignorance.
I’m tired of talking to you because you keep trying to put words in my mouth or creating alternate understandings for which I am clearly stating my opinion. So you can “win” based on my own exhaustion of your rhetoric against mine. I’ve stated my piece and do not desire to argue it further. I hope you have a nice day and despite my desire to end the discussion, I hope you can appreciate my opinion in at least some form. Good night.
I’m stating my opinions just as you are.
Nobody is putting words into your mouth. I’m responding to the words you have said.
I’ve been trying to understand how you could hold such opinions in the face of both facts and your own stated understatings.
Seems willful ignorance is where we landed.
From your other responses elsewhere in the thread it seems this isn’t isolated to just this exchange.
For the record, I do not appreciate your opinion on this as it lacks merit or substance.
If you are unwilling or unable to defend your opinions, a public forum is unlikely to be a good experience for you.
I’d suggest a blog, with the comments turned off.
I really can’t imagine thinking that no matter how disrespectful someone was during a traffic violation, that escalating to pulling someone out of the car and putting them in handcuffs is ok.
Office was never in any danger, he was actually surrounded by other officers. You should be able to disrespect an officer and that should not escalate being physically handled like that.
The expectation for a criminal in a criminal act is to have as much force as needed applied to them to get them to comply. The expectation of an asshole at a traffic stop should be to get his big ticket and keep moving.
If you don’t want to be called a boot licker, stop licking boots!
There are videos of white people doing this kind of thing and getting manhandled. Usually Karens.
You reach for your license ‘too fast’ - cop does not feel safe Acorn falls on car - cop doesn’t feel safe You are boiling water at home - cop does not feel safe You are writhing in pain underneath their boot - cop does not feel safe
US cops are literally brainwashed into feeling like the public is a threat to them. They are wired to look for a reason to escalate.
Fine but those situations are not the same as “angry and noncooperative citizen disobeying my request and I can no longer see what is happening inside the vehicle.”
I would argue that this is actually the correct situation for a police officer to feel more concerned for their safety.
The fact that we need to be concerned for our safety at all while “disobeying” a cop is proof that they act too aggressively and with almost no accountability. Cops can start a gang and murder you and no one bats a fucking eye
Why would a guy in a McLaren, who already gave you his ID, raise suspicions that he might be trying to harm you by simply rolling his window up? This cop mentality that everyone is seconds away from ambushing them like they’re in Fallujah circa 2002 is absurd and drives a lot of this police brutality and overreaction. Don’t forget that these are paid professional government employees. It’s not the citizen’s job to coddle police and play into their own personal paranoia and delusions just to avoid getting beaten or shot.
I dunno, I’m way less terrified of the guy with a 40k watch in a 150k car than I would be in any other situation. Unless I was super jealous that this black dude was rich, and he didn’t show immediate respect to me. Then I might pull him out of his car despite having everything I need to write the citation and being in 0 danger literally surrounded by other officers.