“He’s doing a good job,” Trump saidabout the Israeli leader. “Biden is trying to hold him back, just so you understand, Biden is more superior to the VP. He’s trying to hold him back, and he probably should be doing the opposite, actually. I’m glad that Netanyahu decided to do what he had to do, but it’s moving along pretty good.”
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There are several much better systems than first past the post. Unfortunately that’s the reality at present for this election.
If Trump gets in there will be no calls for restraint at all and indeed full throated support for the destruction of Gaza and potentially the wider region.
Unfortunately the mid western american voter could care less about the pain overseas
What now “genocide” folks?
Still think Trump is the better choice for Palestine and Gaza??
They know.
American politics are unanimous on this issue. Biden complained Obama was being too hard on Neyanyahu. All Obama wanted is for Israel to stop bombing the innocent people in Gaza (and he asked Israel to halt building settlements for 3 months). Biden said that Obama was asking for too much and could risk Israel stop listening to the US. We reached this moment BECAUSE of Biden.
Trump sees how Washington is congratulating Biden while it’s the liberal college students condemning him. That’s a win-win situation in the mind of Republicans. In Trump’s mind, bombing Palestine is good because Biden is getting away with it. Trump is saying he can do it better but isn’t that what Trump says with everything. Is Trump new to you? Biden set this up.
American politics are unanimous on this issue. Biden complained Obama was being too hard on Neyanyahu. All Obama wanted is for Israel to stop bombing the innocent people in Gaza (and he asked Israel to halt building settlements for 3 months). Biden said that Obama was asking for too much and could risk Israel stop listening to the US. We reached this moment BECAUSE of Biden.
Sure is neat how a VP can differ from a president when it’s in favor of Netanyahu.
Personally, I think Biden’s take on Palestine is insane. It’s like he as a personal stake on the continuation of making Palestinians miserable . Why do people still defend on when it comes to this? The best thing for these Democrats to do is what Harris is already doing; not talking about it since her plans on this issue WILL NOT help her campaign.
Why do people still defend on when it comes to this?
Because they also support genocide. There has never been and never will be another reason.
Biden said that Obama was asking for too much and could risk Israel stop listening to the US.
So in your version of events, was Biden right that Israel would stop listening to the US? Like is Israel not listening to the US because Biden was unable to convince Obama? Or are you saying Israel does listen to the US and Biden is making Netanyahu do things he doesn’t really want to do?
Really not sure what your point is here.
If you are an American voter and you sit this one out or vote 3rd party and Trump gets in you are directly supporting escalation and taking whatever little restraint away that Netanyahu is feeling from the USA.
Instead of calls for restraint you will have cheerleading from the sidelines.
I honestly think if you can’t be bothered to vote you need to shut the fuck up, not complain and keep your political opinions to yourself. If you’re not even gonna vote, shut the fuck up. I don’t wanna hear it.
Boggles my mind that anybody intends to vote for Trump not Harris because they think he’ll be better for Palestine.
C’mon enlightened lefties! Come on and tell me how you won’t be voting for genocide and we should follow so the Democrats figure out through losing the election that they should court lefties. Nevermind we get 4 years of, “he’s doing a good job” as long as Democrats learn to denounce genocide.
C’mon you fucking cowards, get in here and sell me on how Trump winning helps solve your single issue voting on genocide.
I’m voting for Harris. She shouldn’t be supporting genocide and neither should you.
Absolutely no disagreement there. I don’t condone genocide, and think we should do something about it but I’m not foolish enough to think not voting for the lesser of two evils accomplishes this. We are in agreement.
Nor am I. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people on lemmy who are so pro-genocide that they cannot abide any criticism of it, no matter how mild. These people immediately assume that anyone who has any misgivings at all about Democrats supporting Netanyahu’s genocide must be a trump supporter.
I’m looking forward to October 21, when early voting opens in Texas, so I can vote for Harris. That doesn’t mean I must remain silent about genocide.
No one here is pro-genocide. It’s all in your head as a defense mechanism to use against people that disagree with you.
Hey bud, genocide denial isn’t genocide support. And while I truly believe genocide is happening, (mods- take note that I said this as I’m certain they’re reporting me for genocide denial)…
there will always be other people out there who try and define things by their own terms. This doesn’t make them right- but we all know your false equivalence has no filter, or ability to discern the difference between the two.
If someone says “I don’t have cancer” when they have cancer, that doesn’t make them pro cancer. It’s just makes them in denial.
In short- saying that it is’t genocide isn’t saying they would support it if it were. And it’s well known that you constantly accuse everyone that calls you out as a genocide supporter. So since we’re handing our advice….
Maybe don’t do that.
Hey bud, genocide denial isn’t genocide support.
It absolutely is.
This is ignorant as fuck. First of all, there is no more reliable group of voters in the country than progressives. Not even MAGA members have shown up at polls as reliably for Republicans as the left has for Democrats. Still, the Democratic establishment whines about leftists staying home to excuse their pathetic losses, and morons eat it up.
Also, even if there were any kind of truth to this narrative, trying to win an election by shaming voters is dumb as fuck. No voter who is as fickle as you think the left is, is going to decide to show up because you shouted insults at them. This isn’t a strategy to win elections, it’s a strategy to excuse losing them.
It’s not “left” voters saying they will stay home, not in significant numbers. It’s Muslim voters or, more precisely, it’s voters who know the names of the people being systematically slaughtered with US weapons. While I agree that voting Democrat is the best bad option for Palestinians, I can’t get behind shaming someone for not voting to elect someone unrepentantly responsible for blowing up their loved ones. If they can’t stomach voting for Harris, I don’t blame them.
Yeah, super ignorant take that purported lefties on Lemmy are playing spoiler under the guise of condemning genocide.
The post was for astroturfing fucks on Lemmy. Way to miss the point.
There are a bunch of “leftists” on lemmy arguing till the cows come home that leftists mustn’t vote for the Democrats on the grounds that Kamala Harris is personally responsible for genocide in Gaza, who are able to both-sides any and every criticism of the Republicans. They advocate not voting and voting third parties, anything, really, as long as anyone with a conscience over Gaza excludes themselves from affecting whether Kamala Harris or Donald Trump becomes president. They argue that losing to the right wingers will push them left, but I think it’ll drag them to the right where the votes are, and that if you withhold your vote when the alternative is someone who promised to be dictator on day one (and more recently says he’ll send the military to deal with “the enemy within”, which is apparently left wing folk), your vote isn’t winnable anyway and you’ve excluded yourself from the very effect on voting you claim to be having, but none of that makes any difference to the people calling themselves leftists who want trump to win.
I think you nailed it with “leftists”. The comment I responded to didn’t bother with the quotes.
The whole point of this obvious right wing psy-op is to drive a wedge between liberals and leftists. When liberals don’t distinguish between “leftists” and leftists, it plays right into their hands.
These operatives are running a two pronged attack. They aren’t just impersonating leftists, they also imitate liberals preaching from their high horses like Hillary Clinton on steroids. Liberals should take care not to do that work for them.
When the election is over, what will you call people who don’t want the US to support genocide when you can’t call them all trumpers?
The logical error implicit in your question is that allowing Donald “finish them” Trump to win is obviously worse for Gaza, so I don’t believe for a minute that anyone calling for folks to exclude themselves from affecting whether the country gets Trump or Harris in the White House actually cares about Gaza at all, even a little bit.
The logical error implicit in your question is that allowing Donald “finish them” Trump to win is obviously worse for Gaza
I’m still voting for Harris, and have never advocated for not voting, voting third party, or voting for trump. You’ve ignored this multiple times because it’s contrary to your “anti-genocide = pro-trump” narrative.
That’s not my narrative AT ALL. My narrative is that the people who argue that caring about Gaza or caring about left wing issues means you should exclude yourself from deciding between Kamala Harris and Donald “best King of Israel” Trump aren’t really left wing or pro Gaza people at all, they’re trumpers trying to suppress left wing votes. Tindiril seemed not to realise they exist, but the rest of the thread has them out in spades. I’ve never taken issue with people hating what’s going on in Gaza and spreading to Lebanon, I just keep pointing out that allowing Trump back in the White House will be worse for Gaza and worse for anything left wing.
My narrative is that people who argue that caring about Gaza of caring about left wing issues means you should exclude yourself from deciding between Kamala Harris and Donald “best King of Israel” Trump are trumpers.
You know I’m not one of those people. And yet, since you can’t abide anyone being unhappy about genocide, you keep pretending I am.
Where did you find yourself in what I said?
Guess I was wrong about you being able to admit mistakes as well.
Anti-Harris = Pro-Trump
Anti-genocide != anti-Harris, but every genocide supporter interprets it so because they don’t want the genocide to stop until it’s complete.
Won’t matter, we all know that most of you won’t be around then.
Why is that? What are you implying?
Make your bullshit accusation overtly.
So you can report me? Not on your life. I know your game, bud.
So you just admitted that you’re calling me something that breaks the community rules.
I advocate firmly for my friends and family to vote for Harris. But I can’t support genocide, so my ballot will not include a vote for president.
So you’re happy to let Donald “finish them” “best king of Israel” “Biden shouldn’t try to hold Netanyahu back, he should do the opposite” Trump lead the western world?!? I think you really need to reexamine the effect of your actions.
I suppose if that is the only two options then whatever, I’m not voting for the lesser of two genocides, but I’m also truly sorry if that offends you. There are many other ballot options for me to consider
I hope Kamala wins, but it is her own fault if she loses against trump
The democrats can recruits millions from the current generation if they just change their policy in one or two simple ways look at the numbers
“I hope the cancer doesn’t kill me, but I won’t do any of the things my doctor recommends to help fight it.”
God. I can’t believe how the bots are shifting the Overton window and how successful they are.
Honestly, is there anyone alive today with more blood on their hands than Benjamin Netanyahu?
Assad is right up there. 500k-600k in the last 10 years in Syria.
That’s about the same yearly average as Israel in Gaza (so far) but for 10+ years ongoing.
But I expect the humanitarian crisis to result in the death rate in Gaza to increase unless the US grows a pair.
The death rate has already gone way down as Israel shifted from assault to low intensity warfare in Gaza. Look at these numbers from the UN in June: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reported-impact-snapshot-gaza-strip-19-june-2024
Notice the curve flattening? According to Al Jazeera the death toll is at 42,500 now. So 5 months to get to 30K (assault phase). Then 7 months to get from 30K to ~43K (low intensity phase). So it’s a rate of less than 2K per month now. At the present rate, the Israel-Hamas war would have to go on for over 23 years to get to the level of casualties from the Syrian civil war.
Yahya Sinwar was just killed because he had to go above ground with only two guards. Do you really think Hamas is going to hold out for 23 years? Come on, you’re smarter than this.
Sorry but the numbers just don’t fit the genocide narrative that people here can’t let go of. If you’re starting from genocide being the absolute truth, then you’re incentivized to ignore a lot of facts and start saying things that don’t make a lot of sense to conform to a narrative.
Trump wants, and largely has, the “Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out!” vote.
True. I think it’s more about whether Harris can pull in the “genocide bad” folks, or loses them to third-party protest votes. Of course if any of those folks were paying attention to the crap coming out of Trump’s mouth, they’d understand how much worse Trump will be. I had folks (hexbear and .ml of course) on a different post telling me that not only would Harris and Trump be the same on this, but that Harris would actually be worse. And of course they’re willfully ignoring how bad Trump would be on everything else.
I have a suspicion that part of what’s pushing Harris’ campaign strategy right now to focus on courting more “centrists” is that they know whatever she did to appeal to the left that’s not voting for her would never be enough to satisfy them. Far easier to court the middle with straightforward messaging than to appeal to a voting bloc that is already determined to hate anyone that’s not as chaotic as they are.
True. I think it’s more about whether Harris can pull in the “genocide bad” folks
I haven’t seen her try. Have you?
Thanks for proving my point.
Not that you’ll read it, but I think this might help explain:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/09/kamala-harris-israel-policy-palestine-gaza-war.html
Perhaps Harris’ loudest statement, however, was prefaced by her absence. Shortly after getting the nod from Biden in July, Harris snubbed Netanyahu, skipping his speech to Congress. (She spoke to a Black sorority, instead.) The next day, she met privately with him—later describing their talk as “frank and productive,” words that your boss might use after a performance review goes poorly.
The reaction to her remarks was underwhelming at the time, but the remarks themselves were extraordinary. “We cannot allow ourselves to become numb to the suffering” of Palestinians in Gaza, “and I will not be silent,” she told reporters and cameras. “Israel has a right to defend itself—but how it does so matters.” It was as close as a sitting vice president could possibly come to reading Netanyahu for filth without creating a diplomatic crisis.
Her messaging regarding unconditional support for the genocide all centrists love is more convincing than subtle hints that slate has to speculate about.
A nuanced take as always /s
Did you even get to the end of the article or did you just read the headline?
Harris has very little room to maneuver, however, without losing a huge part of her base and the party machinery that are still deeply attached to Israel. There is only so much a candidate and sitting vice president can do or say to break with the position held by her staunchly Zionist president, a Democratic establishment beholden to the pro-Israel lobby and AIPAC, and a broad swath of her liberal base that strongly supports Israel and its war. If she’s serious about getting elected, she has to withhold the kind of unambiguous statement—or action—that pro-Palestine activists demand. So she’s reduced to tone of voice, oblique gestures, a message hidden between the lines.
Did you even get to the end of the article or did you just read the headline?
I read the article. I don’t buy excuses and apologia when we’re talking about literal genocide. I also regard with earned disgust anyone who makes such excuses.
The whole “she absolutely can’t differ from Biden in any way except for these subtle hints we speculate about” thing is garbage. She’s not the secretary of state. She’s not running everything behind the scenes like Dick Cheney, though she seems to have garnered his approval, and it speaks volumes that centrists were so goddamned happy about his endorsement. In any event, she is free to differ on foreign policy and chooses not to.
I’m still voting for her. I’m going to be at the polls this coming Monday, which is when early voting opens here in Texas. I have every right to criticize her for supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, even if Netanyahu’s apologists want me to buy that she has shown any opposition whatsoever to the only policy centrists seriously hold.
Okay, let’s play this out. What exactly do you want her to say? Specifically. Because it’s not like as VP she can do anything about it directly. So this is just going to be a statement, right?
Let’s say as part of that statement, she says Israel should get no more aid. That would be the crux of it, correct? And Biden then has to come out and say, that’s not happening while I’m President. Factions within the Democrats withdraw funding and support from her campaign. And the Iranians start actually drooling about being able to basically act unopposed. Hezbollah gets some shiny new missiles to kill more civilians. Centrists withdraw support from Harris and more than likely sit out the election, though a few may move over to Trump. November 6 rolls around and Trump wins, the region is even more of a shitshow than it is now, and just as important, Palestinians will still be dying. And under Trump it will get much, much worse.
Or…she tries to thread a very small needle, gets elected, and can the come to the bargaining table as the newly sworn-in President. She still has to juggle a bunch of different interests, but as President she has the power to do more than make statements and has quite a bit of latitude when it comes to foreign policy. Harris wouldn’t have been my top choice, or even in my top 5, but I can honestly say I can’t believe she won’t make saving Palestinian lives a priority, unlike Biden. But she can’t do it as a candidate.
Like clockwork…
I almost feel powerful due to my ability to summon them.
Hey, at least she has you “genocide good” folks on lock.
And yet, if comments on this site are to be believed, he’s still also getting the, “We refuse to vote Democrat because we’re against the genocide!” crowd (sorry guys, but not voting or voting third party is a vote for Trump. You cannot escape it).
Lemmy right-wing: Biden is too soft on Netanyahu!
From a purely strategic perspective, is this wise of Trump?
My impression is that even many American Jewish people don’t like Netanyahu. And he doesn’t need to remind anti-Harris protest voters that he’s even more anti Palestine. Many MAGA diehards don’t even like Netanyahu.
Like… who is he appealing to? Older Republicans, I guess, who remember Israel’s early days?
He’s appealing to people that hate Muslims.
And people who think the rapture starts with a holy war in Jerusalem.
You mean the anti-genocide protestors that were never voting for Trump? Like the ones that decided to vote for an actually progressive candidate?
Jill Stein, the progressive candidate that has dinner parties in Russia with Mike Flynn.
How many dinner parties are we talking about here and has anyone provided any actual evidence that she is secretly a Russian in disguise? There is evidence that Kamala has stated she’ll keep funding genocide though.
Once was enough for me to put her in the traitor column right with Flynn and the rest of the GOP. As for Palestine, aren’t you bored talking to me? I am with talking to you. I will keep supporting Genocide Joe through the end of his term, and I plan on casting my vote for Harris today.
Like the ones that decided to vote for an actually progressive candidate?
Aka vote for Trump.
I’m normally quite pro-third party and pro-progressive, but this is not the time.
So you turned into a pro-genocide Republican?
…No? If I protest vote against Harris, I help vote Trump into office on razor thin margins, who is even more pro genocide.
Again, I’m normally quick to vote third party or protest vote, but this is not the time.
You support genocide cause you’re scared? I wonder if Palestinians are scared.
Go home, propaganda.
What did I say that was propaganda? I have another question… Are you in a cult?
I refer you to my previous comment.
Harris saying she’ll fund genocide isn’t propaganda, but keep telling yourself whatever lies you need to hear to vote for her.
Harris has never supported the genocide, she supports an immediate cease fire and a two state solution which is the OPPOSITE of supporting the genocide:
March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
There it is.
Yep, you’re ignoring the evidence and lying:
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa
People not voting bcoz of Gaza are fools bcoz that genocide will continue immatter of who is in the white house. US support will continue.
Biden’s actions have shown there is no restraints, so has Harris’s. I am not believing anything Trump is saying.
People not voting bcoz [sic] of Gaza are fools bcoz [sic] that genocide will continue immatter [sic] of who is in the white house. US support will continue.
Eh… maybe.
Biden’s actions have shown there is no restraints, so has Harris’s. I am not believing anything Trump is saying.
Fucking what? Why would you not believe Trump when he says that he thinks Biden is too tough on Netanyahu. Please, tell me how you think it would make sense to lie about that. I’m actually kind of curious about the logic here.
You think Trump is lying? You think he believes that Biden hasn’t been hard enough on Netanyahu, but he lied about it for… reasons?
What goes on in your head?
Why would you not believe Trump when he says that he thinks Biden is too tough on Netanyahu.
Bcoz the govt sends weapons while Biden is giving a soundbite.
Maybe Trump would be worse, he might send deadlier and listening to him bigger weapon. But it is foolish to think the other side would do anything different. Genocide will continue as it has irrespective of the president.
Normally, I would encourage people who are clearly learning English.
But not people like you who are doing it solely to poison the political dialogue of a country that is likely on the opposite side of the planet from you.
Go fuck yourself.
Every centrist agrees.
