English phonology, American English dialects’ (and other dialects’) /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the “j” sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the “ch” sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the “sh” sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).
You can see the same thing with words like “tree” /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even “street” /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]
Would explain simpler but can’t, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with “in-” vs “im-”, “impractical”, which notably isn’t “inpractical”, or “incandescent” which notably isn’t “imcandascent”, or “indecisive” etc. etc.)
Okay, I think I get it. When I say “dr-” the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say “jr-” (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!
I’m thinking it’s a regional thing and this guy is from my general region, it’s totally a thing out here. The letter “T” is really only useful on paper, people use “D” when they speak for the most part for “T” (except for T’s followed by an “h”), and “J” is any “D” when followed by an “r”. Side note, i found it jarring when I was younger and saw a Superman cartoon for the first time, and all the characters were pronouncing “Luthor” as “Luthor”, not “Luther”
Haha same here. And to add onto the Luthor bit, everyone I know pronounces “-or” and “-er” words as “-ir”. Pretty much everybody agrees it sounds stupid, but nobody has the power to stop it.
I mean, we don’t think it sounds stupid, it’s just normal. I’d not have noticed if i hadn’t spent so long abroad, where people though my accent was peculiar, and later laughed often when they’d hear my voice revert halfway through overheard phone calls home. That and owning a bar in my home region and often listening to the wildly different accents people rolling through. Englishmen berating me for my pronunciation of words like “Wilstshire” and “Cheshire”, “Jaguar”, “Brown Sauce” while they order a Kokanee but pronounce it “Cocainee”
Absolutely not. Am American, so I’m gonna go on a limb and assume most of my friends would also probably pronounce it similarly.
The way you say Jra-gon and Dra-gon is completely different in most accents on the West coast. I’m very confident in that.
I think the Midwest would probably say it pretty samsues because they’re not emphasizing the first letter: jRa-gun / dRa-gun or jra-Gn / dra-Gn. Probably gets lost in the sauce a little.
Idk about East Coast, but tbh it probably is closer to Midwesterners dropping consonants and shit so who knows.
It was more like “french” how Americans think french is, sadly not actual french. It was to overemphasize the starting sound, since sometimes it’s hard to isolate sounds and move them around like that (mouth position wise) when you don’t commonly have other words that start with those sounds.
Do y’all actually pronounce dragon with a j sound? How???
English phonology, American English dialects’ (and other dialects’) /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the “j” sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the “ch” sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the “sh” sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).
“Dragon” /dræ.gən/ -> [dɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] -> [d̠ʒɹ̠æ.ɡ(ɪ̈)n]
You can see the same thing with words like “tree” /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even “street” /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]
Would explain simpler but can’t, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with “in-” vs “im-”, “impractical”, which notably isn’t “inpractical”, or “incandescent” which notably isn’t “imcandascent”, or “indecisive” etc. etc.)
Okay, I think I get it. When I say “dr-” the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say “jr-” (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!
I love seeing linguists on Lemmy. Wish we had a bigger community.
To put it in layman’s terms just focus on explaining that J is often [d͡ʒ] which already has a D sound in it.
you’ve written tree as “tshree” there.
Many dialects, indeed, pronounce “tree” as something one might perceive as “chree”.
Aw crap, that’s how I pronounce it. Now I can’t unhear it
Hey there now. We aint knowing any of your elvish. Best keep that to yourself, ya understand?
Mae g’ovannen!
Жragon (ZHragon)
I think this is how you’re supposed to say gif
Джragon (dZHragon = jragon)
Gragon
Don’t start the gif/jif wars again.
It’s clearly yif
I’m thinking it’s a regional thing and this guy is from my general region, it’s totally a thing out here. The letter “T” is really only useful on paper, people use “D” when they speak for the most part for “T” (except for T’s followed by an “h”), and “J” is any “D” when followed by an “r”. Side note, i found it jarring when I was younger and saw a Superman cartoon for the first time, and all the characters were pronouncing “Luthor” as “Luthor”, not “Luther”
Haha same here. And to add onto the Luthor bit, everyone I know pronounces “-or” and “-er” words as “-ir”. Pretty much everybody agrees it sounds stupid, but nobody has the power to stop it.
I mean, we don’t think it sounds stupid, it’s just normal. I’d not have noticed if i hadn’t spent so long abroad, where people though my accent was peculiar, and later laughed often when they’d hear my voice revert halfway through overheard phone calls home. That and owning a bar in my home region and often listening to the wildly different accents people rolling through. Englishmen berating me for my pronunciation of words like “Wilstshire” and “Cheshire”, “Jaguar”, “Brown Sauce” while they order a Kokanee but pronounce it “Cocainee”
Jereggin for sure
I sort of roll the bounce of the “d” in “j” into the r
I didn’t think so either till I pronounced it out loud. WTF is going on?
Pretend like you’re french: j’ragon. It’s the second G in garage or however you would say au jou sauce.
eta: if you’re pronouncing dragon and jragon the same, I’m really concerned and alarmed.
In most Americans accents I think “Dragon” and “Jragon” would be indistinguishable.
I was so fucking confused until I tried saying it out loud. I’m so startled and impressed
Yeah if I slow down and pronounce it with intention, they’re different. In normal speech though, it’s basically “jragon”
I grew up in the Appalachian and it isn’t the same in my accent.
Absolutely not. Am American, so I’m gonna go on a limb and assume most of my friends would also probably pronounce it similarly.
The way you say Jra-gon and Dra-gon is completely different in most accents on the West coast. I’m very confident in that.
I think the Midwest would probably say it pretty samsues because they’re not emphasizing the first letter: jRa-gun / dRa-gun or jra-Gn / dra-Gn. Probably gets lost in the sauce a little.
Idk about East Coast, but tbh it probably is closer to Midwesterners dropping consonants and shit so who knows.
West-coaster here. They’re definitely two completely different pronunciations.
I’m a Midwesterner living on the east coast so that’s entirely possible.
French would be like /ʒragon/ and English would be /dʒragon/
It was more like “french” how Americans think french is, sadly not actual french. It was to overemphasize the starting sound, since sometimes it’s hard to isolate sounds and move them around like that (mouth position wise) when you don’t commonly have other words that start with those sounds.