So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn’t scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas.
And yet, by your very own bullshit IDF soldiers shooting civilians are indeed innocent because it’s all Hama’s fault.
“there is not innocent party in this conflict” is not some solve-all catchphrase to get rid of criticism. It needs to actually be applied and those soldiers need to scrutinized for what happened there.
IDF should be held to account also. I never once made excuses for the crimes of others. You want a cheap get out to deflect blame. I don’t accept that.
No, I want Isreal’s government and military to account for the things they did and not get a free pass because “BuT hAMaS”.
You however have fully eaten up the propaganda of how everyone questioning Israel is somehow magically supporting Hamas and trying to deflect from their terrorist acts. And only when you realize that your bullshit claims like
The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked
They [Hamas] created that fog of war though.
The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough.
don’t fly, you pay lip service to allegedly being critical of both sides, only to then instantly continuing to blame Hamas for Israel killing people.
So you want Israel to investigate errors of judgement that were made under duress. Without a doubt where errors are made then countries need to learn from them. Just remember those errors were caused by the actions of Hamas.
And, where did I say Israel supported Hamas? It is not a claim I have ever made. You are misquoting yet again to twist your narrative.
So first you lied about things you wrote in this very thread and you now you went over to intentionally misreading what I wrote to make accusations (and while I didn’t talk about Israel supporting Hamas here -maybe you are confusing things you read here with the ones on your spreadsheet of talking points-, Israels government indeed supported them financially and that’s as well documented as other things you deny)? How about you bother someone else with your crude propaganda techniques?
This very much depends if Israel can prove Hamas were using it as a base. I have seen the videos with the tunnels they have released. That still does not prove it is a base though. Hamas will state they wanted quicker access to medical supplies. Israel needs to prove fighting took place from there.
Israel has been caught tampering with/fabricating evidence more than once (remember the calendar)? If they had real evidence they’d have published it already.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama’s attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.
(I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)
Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?
You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.
Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.
I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.
So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.
Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?
I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?
So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn’t scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
… That is generally how it works where I live, yes.
Police causalities caused by actions intended to stop a felony are charged to the felon and they are held responsible.
Not that I fully agree with the unscrutinized part but your analogy isn’t the best.
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No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
Basically both of you think the other one is trying to shift blame, when in actuality you’re trying to make sure both are blamed.
Sums up a lot of arguments over this war.
Precisely, there is no innocent party in this conflict.
And yet, by your very own bullshit IDF soldiers shooting civilians are indeed innocent because it’s all Hama’s fault.
“there is not innocent party in this conflict” is not some solve-all catchphrase to get rid of criticism. It needs to actually be applied and those soldiers need to scrutinized for what happened there.
IDF should be held to account also. I never once made excuses for the crimes of others. You want a cheap get out to deflect blame. I don’t accept that.
No, I want Isreal’s government and military to account for the things they did and not get a free pass because “BuT hAMaS”.
You however have fully eaten up the propaganda of how everyone questioning Israel is somehow magically supporting Hamas and trying to deflect from their terrorist acts. And only when you realize that your bullshit claims like
don’t fly, you pay lip service to allegedly being critical of both sides, only to then instantly continuing to blame Hamas for Israel killing people.
So you want Israel to investigate errors of judgement that were made under duress. Without a doubt where errors are made then countries need to learn from them. Just remember those errors were caused by the actions of Hamas.
And, where did I say Israel supported Hamas? It is not a claim I have ever made. You are misquoting yet again to twist your narrative.
So first you lied about things you wrote in this very thread and you now you went over to intentionally misreading what I wrote to make accusations (and while I didn’t talk about Israel supporting Hamas here -maybe you are confusing things you read here with the ones on your spreadsheet of talking points-, Israels government indeed supported them financially and that’s as well documented as other things you deny)? How about you bother someone else with your crude propaganda techniques?
/ignore
deleted by creator
This very much depends if Israel can prove Hamas were using it as a base. I have seen the videos with the tunnels they have released. That still does not prove it is a base though. Hamas will state they wanted quicker access to medical supplies. Israel needs to prove fighting took place from there.
Israel has been caught tampering with/fabricating evidence more than once (remember the calendar)? If they had real evidence they’d have published it already.
Do you expect anything else? This is why it needs an independent review. Israel’s say so alone is not enough.
There should be an independent review of both Hamas and the IDFs actions.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama’s attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
Wait what??
IDF was there killing civilians too?
There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.
(I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)
Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?
You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.
Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.
I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.
So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.
Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?
I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?