- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
The Medical University of South Carolina initially said it wouldn’t be affected by a law banning use of state funds for treatment “furthering the gender transition” of children under 16. Months later, it cut off that care to all trans minors.
One Saturday morning in September 2022, Terrence Steyer, the dean of the College of Medicine at the Medical University of South Carolina, placed an urgent call to a student. Just a year prior, the medical student, Thomas Agostini, had won first place at a university-sponsored event for his graduate research on transgender pediatric patients. He also had been featured in a video on MUSC’s website highlighting resources that support the LGBTQ+ community.
Now, Agostini and his once-lauded study had set off a political firestorm. Conservative activists seized on one line in particular in the study’s summary — a parenthetical noting the youngest transgender patient to visit MUSC’s pediatric endocrinology clinic was 4 years old — and inaccurately claimed that children that young were prescribed hormones as part of a gender transition. Elon Musk amplified the false claim, tweeting, “Is it really true that four-year-olds are receiving hormone treatment?” That led federal and state lawmakers to frantically ask top MUSC leaders whether the public hospital was in fact helping young children medically transition. The hospital was not; its pediatric transgender patients did not receive hormone therapy before puberty, nor does it offer surgical options to minors.
Medicalization of trans children, even those who are entering puberty or beyond, is a bad idea. There needs to be more research on the safety of puberty blockers and cross sex endogenous hormones for long term medical outcomes including cancer and heart disease risks. Once you are an adult, sure, do whatever you want to your body; but there is a different ethical consideration for minors.
Literal ignorance. There are already studies.
“GnRHa treatment did not seem to have a particularly adverse effect on reproductive function or bone growth.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342775/
Puberty blockers only with social transition until age 18 are the standard of care given to the trans girl I grew up with 30 years ago. She didn’t start exogenous hormones or surgery until she was a legal adult. None of this is new and the people you’re listening to are literally just making things up.
Imagine everything about you is exactly the same, but you were born with the wrong body parts and as a result your had to spend your entire childhood pretending to be the opposite sex. It’s not just some adult choice you make like going to college, it’s you.
Your points are valid, but there are moral implications to both sides and it’s disgusting how ignorant and close-minded idiot politicians and billionaires like Musk are about it while actual medical professionals are trying their best to navigate these complex situations. No science will ever change their minds, this is an extension of an ongoing campaign against all trans people, equating them with “groomers” and dudes trying to sneak into girl locker rooms or win sports games. More distractions from the real enemies of human decency and free societies.
If I were a child now, I would potentially be pushed to be trans or NB. I was a tomboy child with a solid interest in math and science. I had a fraught childhood with a medical surgery pushed on me (it could have waited). If I were presented with this idea, maybe I would have thought it fits me, especially because at least certain segments of the trans theory/argument seems to hinge on enforcing gender roles. Turns out, I’m just a woman in STEM.
No that’s not how that works. People aren’t “pushed” into becoming trans, let alone into a medical transition. Trans people, especially trans youths, usually have to fight tooth and nail to have their identities taken seriously, and even harder to access healthcare.
This is just such tired nonsense. I have never met a community more supportive of people breaking gender norms than transgender and non-binary people.
Any promotion of the concept of gender and gender roles in schools is a bad idea in my opinion. The “genderbread person” that pops up is one instance, and it’s discussion of gender includes gender roles: those are societal expectations of actions and characteristics.
Regarding gender roles, how do you respond to the current zeitgeist that asks if gender nonconforming women in literature and film are in fact trans? For example, Jo March in Little Women, and Mulan.
Gender is a concept that exists. That kids will interact with throughout their lives. They deserve to be equipped with the information that helps them makes sense of that.
It doesn’t include gender roles in any version that I have seen.
The closest I’ve seen it get to gender roles is “gender expression”, which it touches on to explicitly separate the concept of gendered expression, from gender identity and biological sex.
In other words, it does the exact opposite of the thing you fear that it does. Its entire purpose is to state that the things you described about yourself earlier, such as being a tomboy, are separate from gender identity and biological sex. That being a tomboy, or having interests that are stereotypically gendered, DO NOT make you that gender.
Those can be interesting conversations even if the answer at the end is “they’re still cisgender”. Cisgender people have been writing gender into stories for a long time, and a lot of those stories do end up have themes very relatable for trans people. Relooking at media through a queer lens is not harmful.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you said there! (even if it might not be what you meant)
We should treat children (and people at large) as neutrally as possible and wait for them to decide for themselves.
Like no expressed expectations, just some tools to understand who they are :)
Gender and gender roles have always been there, what’s promoted is understanding of these concepts and self determination.
What’s the issue with that?
It’s pretty neutral and just defines some terms (sex, gender identity, gender expression, romantic and sexual attraction) and not much more imho.
To me this feels as a non-issue. Trans folks don’t have much in terms of representation. It’s a natural pattern to try to identify with figures that look the most like you. A tomboy girl and a transmasc boy can at the same time identify themselves with the same character without impeding on each other’s interpretation, can’t they?
It’s a flat out lie that kids are pushed to be trans.
Most kids with gender dysphoria are lucky if their parents even support them at all. If anything the parents push kids away from it, as is the case with my kid’s friend. In the worst cases parents even reject the kid altogether. They think they’re doing the best thing for their kid but in fact it is exactly the opposite.
Trans kids often face bigotry and persecution and violence. And you think most parents, knowing this, would want that for their kid unless it was obviously what the kid wants??
Also keep in mind that just because you were a tomboy but not trans doesn’t mean gender dysphoria doesn’t exist.
Literal right-wing propaganda. “ThEy PuSh KiDs To Be TrAnS.” You’re a disgusting person.
Edit: This user is also a mod on a lemmy.world community! Wtf. Remove this fucker.
It has like 11 monthly members and isn’t related to anything harmful, I don’t think it’s that much of an issue for admins to step in.
True, it would be no loss if they remove that mod
deleted by creator
How would you be “pushed?” Who would do it?
What does a random surgery being “pushed” on you have to do with this conversation? Did it have anything to do with gender? What do you mean by this?
I’m asking all these questions in attempt to discuss this in good faith.
Imagine being this stupid. Well, I suppose you don’t have to.
Consider talking to a trans person and how they found their identity, or learning more about the ways gender identity is expressed or how gender influences society, or maybe just touch grass every once in a while instead of being a shitty person pretending to know something you clearly don’t.
There lies the contradiction. How can there be more studies when everyone is fighting against it? You just said two totally opposing things.
Okay this is where we agree. I would not be against something if it were a matter of holding back basic human curiosity.
I did not. There are many ways the application of hormones can be studied, including to populations who take them for other medical reasons and animal models.
So you’re just making stuff up to get angry about. Big studies show de-transition rates are drastically below rates of regret for most common surgeries, including medically-necessary knee surgery, and cosmetic breast augmentation (which teenage cis girls get, and regret, all the time).
Many de-transtioners are just bullied out of medical care by people like yourself, only to re-transition later. The most common reasons cited for detransition were pressure from a parent (36%), transitioning was too hard (33%), too much harassment or discrimination (31%), and trouble getting a job (29%).
Supporting trans kids is mostly just about clothes/name/pronouns, and the only thing they’re offered is puberty blockers, which were used safely in cisgender children with precocious puberty for decades before people like you started distorting the facts.
You’re just another bigot spreading medical misinformation in a bad-faith attempt to block medical care for a stigmatized minority group, and you should feel bad about it. Shame.
How do you propose doing research other than through informed consent from willing volunteers? Let alone that this whole chain of events even stemmed from a research paper! How are they supposed to do the research you said they need to do, when they’re actively punished for doing it?
If we don’t know then isn’t it a coin toss if the adverse effects of the trans healthcare are worse than the adverse effects of not receiving it? Unfortunately we don’t always have 100% knowledge of how things are going to turn out when it comes to health issues and we have to make the best of what we do know. Which should be left to healthcare professionals and their patients to work out together what is best. Not fucking politicians.
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There is actually a fair amount of trans regret that exists where people who transitioned as adults due to a number of factors have to get over the jealousy and regret that comes from comparing their transitions to the ones that other people experienced with transition during puberty. It’s a thing for sure amongst trans femmes particularly because not passing comes with so many downsides and dangers.
It’s useful to remember that a LOT of care is made to ensure that the choice is made with everybody as informed as they possibly can be which is why puberty blockers are used to buy more time before making a decision what puberty is going to look like. The main team for a trans youth involves a specialist therapist, a social worker, a pediatrician and an endocrinologist but nothing happens if the parent or guardian doesn’t sign off. There is a lot to know which is why if you ever meet someone who transitioned early they know their shit.
Those who do come to regret their transition (which is actually a lot lower than almost any surgery due to the care taken beforehand) are also usually not super bitter. Like they acknowledge that their situation sucks do not get me wrong… But most of them know a lot of other trans people because they reach out to find people in their situation. They also see how those people’s lives have been radically changed for the better by the going through the process. The reason a lot of them don’t speak out is because they would be imperiling something that they know is lifesaving for people they know and they have first hand knowledge about the care that was taken on their behalf.
(Or they were able to somehow get semilegal diy hormones while still a minor)
As for detransitioners, I don’t see that as a good reason for not speaking out (not telling them what to do ofc it’s their decision). But staying quiet opens up more space for people who do claim it ruined their lives. So they speak unopposed and get fox news TV spots and book deals and promote more gatekeeping to protect the children. While afaik in reality most people who regret/detransition do it because of transphobia from their relatives or their workplace or smth
Well that’s just it. If you are miserable because the system doesn’t help you then you go outside the system.
Detransitioners (not ones who temporarily suspend their horomones or goals for medical or life goal reasons like having a kid) are really rare comparatively so even if you know one you’re kind of an outlier, finding a second to compare their experiences against is something you probably have to seek out.
One thing that you get really used to as a trans person is people ignoring what you say and twisting whatever was said to match your point. If you detransition because the social cost was too high chances are also good you don’t want to put yourself in the crosshairs and risk Conservatives quoting everything you say out of context or just be dismissed as “just one crazy’s opinion”.
There’s also an unfair situation inside the community where since people have had the very existence of detransitioners used to do them personal harm by conservatives a lot of people are primed to see detransitioners as a threat. Not all trans folks are saints and fear doesn’t bring out the best in people I’m afraid.
Those who decide to do the whole tv spot book deal thing are those who basically don’t care who they hurt for personal gain. That lack of empathy is in itself a narrowing factor. There isn’t so much a market on the left to be elevated like that because you have way more trans voices making stuff with a range of opinions. People on the left don’t need to be swayed by detransitioners when they already understand trans discrimination and trans joy.
It’s easier to be elevated to the top when you are a basically a super rare prop for someone’s re-election campaign. A lot of the liberal situation isn’t throwing their support unanimously behind trans rights… A lot of them are kind of hoping you forget about trans people because they think that will lose them support so they fronting other issues leaving trans people do their own advocacy.
well wouldn’t more visibility for non-regretful detransitioners help with that as well? like a counterexample you can point to when conservatives say it’s a scary irreversible decision that you shouldn’t make unless you’re 146% sure
I wouldn’t imagine that a lot of detransitioners have the energy to advocate. Social transition generally has a hot mess stage where people aren’t really very confident in their transition and you are just clinging to the bricks with splintering fingers trying to get through the hard part of telling everyone what you need. Going through that and then reversing course and doing it a second time probably holds enough social anxiety for several lifetimes on it’s own.
The route of least resistance is to just quietly try and go forward with nobody knowing your history. I would not fault anyone for wanting that.
It’s Also reaaaaaaaaallly rare. Like 2020 in the US there were something around 12,800 gender affirming surgeries done in the US. If the detransition rate is about 1% that is only about 128 people. Of detransitioners studies tend to put those who just found it wasn’t for them (not counting those who found anti-trans sentiments and pressures unbearable and wanted to flee back into the closet where they felt safe) at around 0.04 percent… That’s about… maybe ONE person for everyone who surgically transitioned in the US that year? I dunno how you really count 0.5 of a person so maybe it’s a coin toss?
It’s really scary being that alone as a voice. You are really vulnerable.
I guess you can’t read
There are plenty of studies. The “no studies” thing is a bad faith argument from deliberately misunderstanding the way medical studies work. The theoretical ideal of a double blind study has serious ethical problems when it involves giving a placebo to someone who would be seriously harmed by being denied care, so not all studies are done that way.
Bet you say the same shit about vaccines.
Just report that transphobe. They don’t belong here on Lemmy
Nope, I am provax! Got my flu and COVID shots a few weeks ago.
Ideally you will have received a series of vaccines throughout your lifetime. Anti-science people aren’t truly anti-vax: they’re anti-THIS-vax, like their 18th vaccination is somehow the poison.
Yes, I have, and I continue to urge people to wear masks, get vaccinated, I get my dogs vaccinated; I urge people to vote, I believe systemic racism exists, etc. Despite the narrative that people try to push that all those opposed to medically transitioning children are right-wing conservatives, I am not. I am also a trained scientist with a PhD from a public Ivy university. I do not think that the current zeitgeist surrounding this issue has been resolved through rigorous science and the best attempts to do no harm: to everyone.
The problem is that in order to prevent the incredibly rare occurrence of a cisgender person mistakenly undergoing transition, you are advocating for policies that would force a far greater number of transgender people to undergo that same horror.
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sigh I don’t know why I bother speaking with TERFs.
Firstly, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote or the chain of comments thus far. It’s just a completely non-sequitur accusation.
But secondly, this isn’t happening.
An intersectional understanding of oppression and privilege does not erase the oppression cisgender women face.
And the distinctions in language are absolutely not being removed. The words “transgender” and “cisgender” exist precisely to make discussing these issues in a clear and respectful manner possible. That’s exactly what those words are for.
I agree with you.
Thank you. Today I decided I didn’t just want to silence my opinion and contribute to an echo chamber. (Tomorrow I will probably go back to upvoting cat memes.)