I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war”. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump’s campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
I’m voting for a third party instead of the slightly less evil fascist. I recommend y’all do as well. Dr. West and Claudia La Cruz are good options.
If you’re not in a swing state I recommend you do the same.
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Nope and if you don’t understand there are more than two options that’s a you problem. 😜
There’s only two plausible winners.
A dilemma doesn’t go away if you wish really hard for a third option.
The fact you don’t understand there are only two options is everyone’s problem.
There are literally more options. It’s people like you that prevent a third option from becoming mainstream. Do you understand that??
If you got every person on Lemmy to vote for a single third party, you would still only have single-digit percent support. A third party will never get the popular vote, as long as we have first past the post voting.
All right and if you got every single person on lemmy to vote for the dems or the Republicans, it wouldn’t change the outcome of the election. Are you saying this argument determines absolutely nothing? Because I agree lol.
Do you know that the popular vote doesn’t determine the outcome of US presidential elections? Cuz it sounds like you don’t understand that. I’m totally for switching to rank choice voting. Sadly we need elected politicians to do that sooooo not really productive 🤷
If we vote in some third party candidates who are actual leftist, they might enact rank choice voting. So maybe start there.
Almost no one here would vote for Trump, so you’re just pulling votes away from Biden which might be enough to influence the results of the election. A few percent could be all that makes the difference.
A second ago convincing everyone on lemmy wasn’t “even a single digit percent” now it could be a few percent and change the result of the election🤣? Do you see why I think you are ignorant and dramatic?
Like dude I get it trump and his fascist cronies are scary as fuck. But My state will not suddenly become contested in the 2024 election. I guarantee it. It will be blue. My vote for a third party just slowly puts their number up over time to get us out of this mess. The more people who can do that the better. Obviously if you’re in a swing state or state that could become contested. Yeah, vote for the lesser evil. I’m not in that situation. If you’re not able to grasp that, that’s your problem.
Given that 2016 was decided by 20k votes spread across three states, id say that yeah, every person on Lemmy might swing the election.
The spoiler effect is real, and ur not going to get a chance for third party candidates to ever matter if the raging turnip were to win.
Ok buddy. This topic and level of nuance seems to be above your comprehension level. I’m going to leave you with a few facts. I won’t be responding to you after this.
I voted third party in 2016. Jill Stein.
Hillary Clinton won my state in 2016 easily. It’s a very blue state.
Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in 2016 but lost the election.
I hope you spend some time to fill in the gaps of information you don’t know. I hope you one day learn that it’s okay not to know everything and to not pretend like you know more than you do. Best of luck ✌️
under normal circumstances, i would be inclined to agree. however, your country’s voting system is anything but normal.
i’m afraid that your view of the available options is nothing more than misguided.
you’re throwing away what little choice you have. you’re pretending to make a statement and pretending to support the party that you vote for, knowing full well that they won’t win.
good luck with trump, my friend; i will be watching in disappointment.
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ah, showing your true colours, at last!
Yes, I’m annoyed because you don’t even understand my country’s voting system or why it would matter what state you live in when it comes to voting yet you want to mansplain it to me. You are insufferable lol. I wish men like you who think that they can just guess the correct thing which shut the f****** when someone who knows what they’re talking about is speaking. I’m not going to reply to you again. 🖕
i love how you now decide to censor your profanity
A vote for Biden is a signal to the Democratic party that we like what they’re doing. There is no incentive for Democrats to change if we keep voting them in out of fear. Right now they are just incentived to be slightly better than the proud White Nationalist dude, which is an extremely low bar.
Democrats are unable to go further left because that risks losing votes to the GOP.
In a 2-party system, you don’t get the choice you want to make. Instead, you have to vote against what you like least, in order to motivate that party to move. You vote dem, so the GOP is forced to change. The parties grow closer together, giving the democrats room to move further left.
It’s a terrible system. The first candidate that wants to do election reform should be voted in ASAP.
lmao did the gop change or just get more conservative after two Obama administrations?
Obama was not exactly a progressive, was he? The GOP moved right because Trump pulled them there, and there was a voter base to use. They also had the opportunity, given that Clinton was not as popular as hoped. The media has been shifting rightwards as well. And they will keep moving right as long as they believe it will win them elections.
Well we get to have a monoparty system in the inverse, but i guess technically ceasing to exist would be a change for dems.
That’s your right. You aren’t even required to understand that the consequences of your actions are that you’re making it easier for a guy who said he wants to be a Dictator, a guy who said he “wants to finish the problem” with regards to Palestinian genocide, a guy who has probably just been outright purchased by a conglomerate of foreign influence.
You’re giving that guy a helping hand.
And that’s your right.
only a vote for a candidate helps that candidate
No
its true. if no one votes for a candidate, it doesnt matter how manyvotes any other candidate gets.
That’s not what you said. Your original “only” indicates that you think that votes + splitting your opponents votes isn’t a strategy.
If splitting votes didn’t matter, there wouldn’t be so much effort put into gerrymandering. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP
Voting is a practical, strategic act, not an ideological one.
>Voting is a practical, strategic act, not an ideological one.
every act is morally good, amoral, or immoral. it’s immoral to vote for bad people.
you may think ends justify the means. you may think your strategy is better or more moral. i disagree.
No, I’m sorry, that’s dangerously naïve, and a self-serving, solipsistic moral panic. How old are you?
If we used RCV or anything better that winner-take-all, that would be different, or if we had a parliamentary system. But we don’t.
One could argue that it’s immoral to not vote in a way that prevents the worst choice from winning.
so I will make you a deal: I’ll vote my conscience, and you vote yours.
and in the meantime we organize, and after, we organize
>If splitting votes didn’t matter, there wouldn’t be so much effort put into gerrymandering.
you’re falling prey here to a logical fallacy called equivocation. splitting is used in two distinct senses in electoral politics, and you are taking one of its uses and purporting that it supports the validity of the other use. it does not AND the other use is misleading at best, but i believe it’s genuinely dishonest and manipulative.
Explain and distinguish both, then. I genuinely don’t see it.
on the one hand there is gerrymandering which has the effect of splitting up voting blocks.
on the other hand there is the lie that votes are owned by or owed to only two parties, and any vote outside of those two parties is stolen by the so-called third parties.
in fact, the votes belong to voters, and it is up to them to decide who they want to vote for, and it is up to the politicians to try to win those votes.
> Your original “only” indicates that you think that votes + splitting your opponents votes isn’t a strategy.
you are putting words inmy mouth. i explained what i said. i’m the authority on what i meant.
I’m putting your own words in your mouth. I’m sorry you refuse to accept that splitting opponents votes works. Good luck.
Biden and his foolish decisions are giving that guy a helping hand. Try telling Biden to stop being a fucking moron if he wants to win the election.
Bro, I live in one of the bluest states. It will not go red. If I were in a swing state I’d understand where you’re coming from. If you don’t understand the difference then this conversation isnt productive.
100%. Blue MAGA’s going to come out in force on this thread. If you’re in CA or similar “will go blue no matter what” state, there’s no reason for principled leftists to vote for Biden. Same with “will go red no matter what” states.
There is this notion that most states are “solid red or blue”… except we keep getting surprised in elections, and polling has been shit since at least the 2016 election. I don’t want people in TX giving otherwise Biden votes to some 3rd party when the state as a whole has been trying to become more blue.
Trump’s new slogan is going to be “Take America Back”. You can buy the merch on AliExpress right now. His followers don’t interpret that to mean “by voting”.
Save the 3rd party virtue signals for a time when we’re not on the verge of a civil war. The message we should all be sending right now is unified support for the guy who can keep Trump out of the oval office.
Do take note how aggressive these ppl/accounts get at the notions of ppl voting blue.
We need solidarity, not more division. Go vote for the infinitely less shit candidate, then pursue whatever additional means u feel make changes happen. If ur wasting ur time yelling at ppl for voting or calling them stupid, ur just sowing division.
Ayyye exactly 👈😎. Glad you’re on the same page stranger.