The thing is, you can sometimes get through to these Trump supporters if you can deprogram them from their echo-chamber… That requires very long conversations, an expose of facts, dismantling of their fallacies, and keeping them away from right-wing propaganda and peer pressure for an extended period of time.
… Which just so happens to be what jurors go through.
I honestly don’t think lawmakers put that level of thought into dismantling education. Votes are the only goal here.
Somewhere along the line, it was Limbaugh for me, conservatives noticed that educated people tend to vote liberal. Well hell, how do we explain this?!
The pundits launched a full-frontal attack on education and those “ivory tower liberals”. Who the fuck are these people to tell me how to think when I got the Bible and my gut feelings?!
I watched this unfold. No one talked down on education in the 70s and 80s, nothing like the conservatives do now anyway. Then… Remember Rick Santorum baggin’ on Obama for having 2 degrees? While Santorum had 3. FFS, Obama taught Constitutional law at Harvard and the GOP acted like that made him less able to judge Constitutional matters.
Now “education bad” gets votes, that easy. I don’t think there was a real plan. As always, the GOP rolls with what works emotionally. (While the Democrats think they can win on logical arguments.)
Why does EVERYTHING give me new ideas for tv shows that I could create if I were in the entertainment business?
Ok, imagine this show:
A 60 year old man stars as the lead character. He’s an overweight confederate flag wearing, racist, who just had his company relocate. Instead of working in Ohio, his factory is moving to Vermont. And so he’s going there too.
Now out of his echo chamber, he continues to be himself, the only way he’s ever known how. By repeating fox news talking points as his own original ideas. Completely unaware that he’s now surrounded by NPR donating listeners who already know the talking points he’s going to say for the day, and how to rebutte it before he even opens his mouth.
Faced with a new and challenging world changing around him, he feels he’s going crazy, until a conversation on a park bench. He talks with an elderly homeless man feeding the ducks, who shows him the deception he’s been led to believe, the brainwashing he’s victim to, and the consequences it has for people he’s never met. He has his eureka moment, and decides to change.
The show starts with him as the new manager of the factory, as the previous manager was shot and killed in a random public shooting that he had nothing to do with. He was just there. Being that the main character is the only other person to move from Ohio, he’s the only one who knows how to run the business. So now he’s working with an all new crew. Instead of 97% older whites, it’s now a total hodgepodge of races, ages, and backgrounds working the factory floor.
The series follows his progression and growth from being a racist out of touch boomer who’s only personality trait can best be described as “fox news”, to a more mentally complete well rounded person with compassion and empathy for people who may not be just like him. You see him at times struggle with this. He may not have fox news in his ears anymore, but he did for 30 years previously. So he’ll still slip up from time to time, and have to unlearn what his former life instincts would lead him to say and do.
He gets advice everyday from the elderly homeless man in the park. Whom on the last episode pulls his coat hood back, and it was Bernie Sanders all along.
Don’t make him the manager, make him a shift leader that is asked to be a union rep when the employees decide to unionize. As he looks closer at the shady practices of the private equity firm that bought the company and moved it, he begins to understand the incompatibility of Fox talking points and what’s happening in real life around him.
There was an article around here this week, and I didn’t read further about it, saying it only takes a few days off FB to get people to turn around on conspiracy theories.
Six weeks plus 11 people worth of peer pressure all getting increasingly pissed off at you for wasting their time with your obstinate dumbassery, I guess.
Trump did; it’s a matter of public record. He violated court instructions about blabbing to the media ten times, and was held in contempt by the judge twice.
He repeatedly make false and misleading statements about the trial, the judge, the witnesses, and even the jury on social media and to the press in the entrance hall of the court building itself. The idiot just couldn’t stop himself.
Had he been a regular citizen instead of a former president, he would have almost certainly done jail time just for his behavior during the trial.
My understanding is that juries in America dont really deliberate on a verdict or a sentence. Thats up to the judge.
Instead, I believe they’re presented with all the facts and arguments, then determine based on that information whether or not the the prosecution’s claims hold up.
So its more of a “based on the facts you have been presented with, do you think the defendant did X (Y/N)”, rather than “should the defendant be punished for this crime?”
Most Trump supporters understand that he’s a criminal, but believe that his actions are in service of the greater good. So in a situation like this the distinction between “do the facts line up” and “should he be punished” is an important one.
My understanding is that juries in America dont really deliberate on a verdict or a sentence. Thats up to the judge.
in a jury trial, the judge is there to manage the process and keep it fair. The prosecution presents their case, and the defense tries to poke holes and cause ‘reasonable doubt’.
yes, there are controls in place, like instructions on what may and may not be considered during deliberations, and yes, that restricts the jury’s decision significantly. For example, they’re not allowed to consider that Trump is a lying asshole who stole nuclear secrets when he left office, raped E Jean Carol or tried to lead an insurrection on jan 6 to overturn the government.
None of that really matters to this case. But the 12 jurors were ultimately the ones deciding that guilt or innocence or whatever. And they did so unanimously. The judge didn’t make the decision and tell them to come to a guilty verdict. (and the judge can only overrule such a verdict if it’s blatantly obvious they fucked it up. usually at that point they start over with a new trial and a new jury.)
A jury isn’t strictly bound by the facts. For example, a jury might feel that a law is unjust, and refuse to find someone guilty (called “jury nullification”). This is good and bad, such as by truly refusing to find guilt under an unjust law, but it has also been used by racist juries to let a white man accused of lynching a black man go free. And even without overwhelming evidence, a jury might find someone guilty, because “everyone knows they did it”, or something like that. Or because they did something and they can’t exactly prove that or another charge.
And then even after the jury returns their verdict, either the defense or prosecution may move to set aside the verdict. Those motions are rarely granted, but they happen.
I don’t think a judge can overturn a jury verdict on their own authority.
Of course, all of this varies by jurisdiction. Federal law and each state’s laws have their own quirks, and there are differences in civil and criminal law as well.
The thing is, you can sometimes get through to these Trump supporters if you can deprogram them from their echo-chamber… That requires very long conversations, an expose of facts, dismantling of their fallacies, and keeping them away from right-wing propaganda and peer pressure for an extended period of time.
… Which just so happens to be what jurors go through.
That’s a nice wholesome take. Reminds me of this man:
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
Doing this right now with my in-laws who are from India and deeply Modi-fied.
Six weeks is all it would take to undo years of brainwashing from every direction? I doubt it.
Well, education in general… Which is why they are so absolutely desperate to dismantle our education system.
I honestly don’t think lawmakers put that level of thought into dismantling education. Votes are the only goal here.
Somewhere along the line, it was Limbaugh for me, conservatives noticed that educated people tend to vote liberal. Well hell, how do we explain this?!
The pundits launched a full-frontal attack on education and those “ivory tower liberals”. Who the fuck are these people to tell me how to think when I got the Bible and my gut feelings?!
I watched this unfold. No one talked down on education in the 70s and 80s, nothing like the conservatives do now anyway. Then… Remember Rick Santorum baggin’ on Obama for having 2 degrees? While Santorum had 3. FFS, Obama taught Constitutional law at Harvard and the GOP acted like that made him less able to judge Constitutional matters.
Now “education bad” gets votes, that easy. I don’t think there was a real plan. As always, the GOP rolls with what works emotionally. (While the Democrats think they can win on logical arguments.)
Without Fox News and others, who will tell them what to think/say/do? They probably had their first unobstructed, own thoughts in years.
Why does EVERYTHING give me new ideas for tv shows that I could create if I were in the entertainment business?
Ok, imagine this show:
A 60 year old man stars as the lead character. He’s an overweight confederate flag wearing, racist, who just had his company relocate. Instead of working in Ohio, his factory is moving to Vermont. And so he’s going there too.
Now out of his echo chamber, he continues to be himself, the only way he’s ever known how. By repeating fox news talking points as his own original ideas. Completely unaware that he’s now surrounded by NPR donating listeners who already know the talking points he’s going to say for the day, and how to rebutte it before he even opens his mouth.
Faced with a new and challenging world changing around him, he feels he’s going crazy, until a conversation on a park bench. He talks with an elderly homeless man feeding the ducks, who shows him the deception he’s been led to believe, the brainwashing he’s victim to, and the consequences it has for people he’s never met. He has his eureka moment, and decides to change.
The show starts with him as the new manager of the factory, as the previous manager was shot and killed in a random public shooting that he had nothing to do with. He was just there. Being that the main character is the only other person to move from Ohio, he’s the only one who knows how to run the business. So now he’s working with an all new crew. Instead of 97% older whites, it’s now a total hodgepodge of races, ages, and backgrounds working the factory floor.
The series follows his progression and growth from being a racist out of touch boomer who’s only personality trait can best be described as “fox news”, to a more mentally complete well rounded person with compassion and empathy for people who may not be just like him. You see him at times struggle with this. He may not have fox news in his ears anymore, but he did for 30 years previously. So he’ll still slip up from time to time, and have to unlearn what his former life instincts would lead him to say and do.
He gets advice everyday from the elderly homeless man in the park. Whom on the last episode pulls his coat hood back, and it was Bernie Sanders all along.
Don’t make him the manager, make him a shift leader that is asked to be a union rep when the employees decide to unionize. As he looks closer at the shady practices of the private equity firm that bought the company and moved it, he begins to understand the incompatibility of Fox talking points and what’s happening in real life around him.
I like it!
There was an article around here this week, and I didn’t read further about it, saying it only takes a few days off FB to get people to turn around on conspiracy theories.
I guess lies take constant reinforcement?
Six weeks plus 11 people worth of peer pressure all getting increasingly pissed off at you for wasting their time with your obstinate dumbassery, I guess.
It could very well be a case of “Never meet your childhood heroes”. Trump probably acted like a spoiled brat and the juror saw it first hand.
Trump did; it’s a matter of public record. He violated court instructions about blabbing to the media ten times, and was held in contempt by the judge twice.
He repeatedly make false and misleading statements about the trial, the judge, the witnesses, and even the jury on social media and to the press in the entrance hall of the court building itself. The idiot just couldn’t stop himself.
Had he been a regular citizen instead of a former president, he would have almost certainly done jail time just for his behavior during the trial.
Six weeks in a different environment is a long time. Talk to people about their first six weeks on a new job; or at boot camp; or even summer camp.
My understanding is that juries in America dont really deliberate on a verdict or a sentence. Thats up to the judge.
Instead, I believe they’re presented with all the facts and arguments, then determine based on that information whether or not the the prosecution’s claims hold up.
So its more of a “based on the facts you have been presented with, do you think the defendant did X (Y/N)”, rather than “should the defendant be punished for this crime?”
Most Trump supporters understand that he’s a criminal, but believe that his actions are in service of the greater good. So in a situation like this the distinction between “do the facts line up” and “should he be punished” is an important one.
I was on a jury in Texas in 2019 and we were tasked with both.
First part: Based on the facts you have been presented, do you think defendant did X?
If yes
Second part: You have determined that defendant did X. Now determine the punishment
That second part was by far the more difficult of the two
What was the process like of determining the punishment? I didn’t know that was a potential duty that juries could be tasked with.
The judge gets to decide the sentence here.
The judge that Trump has insulted & threatened for the past 7 weeks.
in a jury trial, the judge is there to manage the process and keep it fair. The prosecution presents their case, and the defense tries to poke holes and cause ‘reasonable doubt’.
yes, there are controls in place, like instructions on what may and may not be considered during deliberations, and yes, that restricts the jury’s decision significantly. For example, they’re not allowed to consider that Trump is a lying asshole who stole nuclear secrets when he left office, raped E Jean Carol or tried to lead an insurrection on jan 6 to overturn the government.
None of that really matters to this case. But the 12 jurors were ultimately the ones deciding that guilt or innocence or whatever. And they did so unanimously. The judge didn’t make the decision and tell them to come to a guilty verdict. (and the judge can only overrule such a verdict if it’s blatantly obvious they fucked it up. usually at that point they start over with a new trial and a new jury.)
Close, but jury instructions are very particular.
“This is the exact law and how it works. Did the defendant run afoul of this law?”
A competent judge and prosecutor forces the whole show to stay exactly in those bounds.
It’s… complicated, but sort of yes.
A jury isn’t strictly bound by the facts. For example, a jury might feel that a law is unjust, and refuse to find someone guilty (called “jury nullification”). This is good and bad, such as by truly refusing to find guilt under an unjust law, but it has also been used by racist juries to let a white man accused of lynching a black man go free. And even without overwhelming evidence, a jury might find someone guilty, because “everyone knows they did it”, or something like that. Or because they did something and they can’t exactly prove that or another charge.
And then even after the jury returns their verdict, either the defense or prosecution may move to set aside the verdict. Those motions are rarely granted, but they happen.
I don’t think a judge can overturn a jury verdict on their own authority.
Of course, all of this varies by jurisdiction. Federal law and each state’s laws have their own quirks, and there are differences in civil and criminal law as well.
If that’s what actually happened, I wonder if those things stick when he re-enters civilian life to go back to having Fox News blaring 24/7.