People who say they are only good because of the threat of eternal damnation are literal psychopaths.
I’m only good because of the law. I don’t like the idea of spending the rest of my life in jail.
Then you’re not good, you’re just law compliant.
Lawful Neutral
Laws are not written to make people good. Following them doesn’t make you good.
There are countless laws that don’t send you to jail. Do you break them?
No officer.
Exactly. It just sounds like they would do anything if they were sure they wouldn’t be punished for it.
This person is openly telling you that the only thing stopping them from being a shitty person is some myth about otherworldly punishment after they die.
Which, of course, means they’ll be juuuust as shitty as they believe they can get away with.
Yeah, the “why be good if there’s no God/Hell” is a disturbing as fuck argument, because it essentially says that if they decide that their god wants them to start killing, they’ll do it.
I’m good because if I do something bad, I feel bad about it. It’s pretty simple.
exactly. i understand that doing bad things is bad because i feel guilt and shame when i do bad things. conversely, i feel good when i do good things. I also understand the broader implications of both-- not to mention that i have empathy and can see the impact of my actions upon others while caring as well.
i don’t need a fairy tale to threaten me with eternal torture in order to not be a sociopath.
That’s the problem. These people lack empathy. They don’t feel happy when they make someone else happy unless they get something more than that out of it.
If you and I have an interaction that leaves us both happy, that’s socialism and GOPJesus frowns on socialism.
The number of murderers who claim
goodGod told them to do it is non-zero.who claim good told them
Was this a typo?
Yes, rather an autocorrect-o.
I had a coworker catholic who both said that statement, and also argued animals had no souls, so no one should ever get in trouble for animal abuse. Along with his ridiculously heated response to any government involvement in Healthcare, and the way he got close to yelling when discussing these topics while also claiming he was just being logical, not emotional. Why yes he did call women emotional, how did you know?
People like him scare me, because it sounds like if he could use some religious context to say I didn’t have a soul, he’d probably come to the same conclusion he did about dogs.
One of those increasingly more common conservative Catholics. Disappointing.
also the bible says genocide is ok and its ok to do all sorts of things to folks who aren’t your “neighbor”
Yeah that’s my takeaway from that argument as well. If you have to be threatened by some vague notion of a future punishment in order to not be a complete dickwad, you’re clearly not a good person.
Why be good if there’s no hell? Because to live is to suffer. Society sucks. Accepting that, working past it, and being kind to those around you makes everything slightly more bearable. You are to be kind to others because it’s the right thing to be.
One crisis of faith away from a murder spree.
Happened to a relative of mine, kind of. Went on a drug and debauchery spree. Not the fun way. Hard drugs, seriously addictive. Stole from the family, we all disowned them. Ended up hitting someone while driving under the influence and killing them. Went to jail, supposedly got sober, but I’m still no-contact.
What I find even more reprehensible than the sentiment “Without the threat of consequences, why should I be decent?” is that their own fucking book holds the answer to their goddamn question (not an expletive here, their god should and probably would damn them for it):
“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” - Matthew 7:12
The first half of this is a principle independent of religion, a fundamental social contract, the most critical idea underpinning any functioning society: Expect your behaviour to be reciprocated, and act accordingly. If you want others to help you if you need it, help people (if you can). If you want others to be kind to you, be kind to others. If you’re gonna be a prick, expect others to be just as prickly to you.
If all that keeps you from murdering people is the threat of eternal damnation, you forget that your own scripture says “If you kill people, expect that others may kill you in turn.”
Bonus: the biblical Jesus was known to hate hypocrites that pick out one piece of scripture to follow and ignore another and pharisees that carefully interpret and follow the letter of the law to find loopholes and ignore the heart of it. Those people lawyering their way around the otherwise unmistakable passages about generosity and giving away your wealth? Believe it or not, straight to hell.
More disgusting than the sentiment mentioned at the start is the hypocrisy of selectively applying it, the inconsistency in their own beliefs, the hollow facade of devotion while spitting on the principles they perjure to obey.
Signed, an apostate whose faith was shattered by fallacy of preaching love while children suffer and threatening hell while blasphemers thrive.
It absolutely confounds me how Christianity has become a stereotypically right-wing thing when in the context of the time Jesus’s actions are mostly that of a radical progressive who amassed such a following that the power structures of the time had him killed.
Like how in the hell can you run around hating homosexuals and immigrants when you account for the company Jesus kept in the context of the time? Only if you completely fucking ignore it.
My wife’s grandfather was a pastor, and a saying that has passed through her family is “On the day of judgment, there’s going to be a lot of Christians facing a very unhappy surprise”.
Signed, former apostate who has found his way back to being an incredibly frustrated Christian.
Why be good if there is no hell?
Erm… If you need to be threathened with eternal torture in order to be a good person, then chances are you are not good person.
Exactly this thought made made me understand “god is irrelevant” a long time ago and I became an agnosticist.
I really can not understand people who are only “good” because they fear an ultimate judgment, and not be good just because they want to out of their own volition.
In case there are gods, I’ll be judged for who I am, anyways. It doesn’t matter if I play “good child”. If there are no gods, I’m still happier if I’m not an asshole.
If you need the promise of punishment to be good, then you’re not a good person.
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again. If you need the threat of eternal damnation weighing over you to be a good person, you’re not a good person.
Its scary that people need hell to not commit crimes and stuff like that.
“I already commit all the murder and rape I want. The number of times I want to rape and murder just happens to be 0.” - Penn Gillette
Tbf, there were a few times I’ve wanted to murder some people.
same. But it’s not fear of God that keeps me from doing it. It’s the dread of going to prison.
Just like Taco Guy. He knows there are no tacos in prison so he lives life in such a way to avoid prison.
For me I’d say its a mix of legal repercussions AND knowing that murder is wrong and that a society that allows it isnt really a safe society to be a part of, so while someone might be being awful enough to me that the thought crossed my mind, maybe I should go find somewhere to cool down. But, like you said, god had nothing to do with any of that
The legal repercussions would be a secondary thing to me. I have no problem breaking an unjust law if I think I can do so. I do not feel the slightest bit of guilt violating drug laws.
If I murdered someone? I wouldn’t be able to live with the guilt.
AND knowing that murder is wrong
True, and since probably neither of us are in the heat of murderous anger right now, let’s think back to that time we HAVE been in the heat of murderous anger, And I’m telling you, that sonofabitch DESERVES it, right?! He COMPLETELY DESTROYED my life and he KNOWS it, and he will never even acknowledge it or apologize. Even now the only reason I’d regret following through with this ideation is the dread of prison and losing all my freedoms forever. But yeah, these guys are safe, at least from MY wrath. I moved 2000 miles away. But surely they fuck up a lot of things and a LOT of people are equally angry at them, so hopefully karma does its thing with them.
This comment is a bit of a ride. I’m not super sure what the end point of it was, but I send hugs regardless.
LOL thank you, I was just venting. I don’t get any opportunities whatsoever to vent about that particular issue that’s always quite a bit of PTSD. Thank you for the hugs. I’m a good person that did not deserve to be wronged by those two people.
Murder might be too specific, but there are definitely people I wish just didn’t exist anymore
Fuck, that’s such a damn good quote.
Both points, being A: Controlling the population when they are already adult and B: Controlling the population by raising them “correct”, are equally valid, though. Imo
As an atheist I can’t tell you how many Christians have asked me why I don’t just rape and murder people if I don’t believe in hell. Tells me everything I need to know about that POS.
If I need hell to control my behavior I might as well be running around doing this
which frankly sounds betterBrain - Candied
Tapeworm - Fed
Heads - Crushed
Chicken- LadiedTake that, atheists 😎
The number of apparently utterly batshit insane potential criminals that are only held in check (barely) by religion in the US is quite disturbing.
The reality is that they aren’t held in check. Rural crime is widely underreported because cops in the boonies won’t take a report about domestic violence unless it involves a trip to the hospital
unfortunately, this is often true in big cities as well.
things are a lot better in that regard than they used to be. dv is no longer by default regarded as a “private matter,” laws and resources have improved.
on the flip side, dv can be hard to prove, especially to a busy cop or judge. and policing is also not a profession averse to abusers.
edit typo
Agreed. If the only that stops some people from committing crimes is the threat of supernatural punishment, then they have the morality of an insect.
I’m willing to bet that insects have far better morals.
“Why even be good if there’s no heaven?”
They are actually absolutely right. Because I don’t believe in heaven, I’m exactly as evil as I want to be
I sexually assault and murder exactly as much as I want to, and that amount is zero… ok, at least the sexually assault part
murder exactly as much as I want to
Uh… You mean animals and plants and stuff, right?
…right?
Tacos. Absolutely murder me some tacos.
I think you’re missing the point. We’re talking about tacos.
Be good so you don’t disappoint the tacos
Everything we do, we do for the love of tacos.
I also eat all the tacos I want
High-five bro
Virgin “I live in an existentialist mental hell I’ve been indoctrinated into” vs Chad “A meaningless life in a purposeless universe means I’m the master of my own destiny, and therefore I choose to eat tacos”
Why be good if there is no hell?
Because morale is a societal and not a religious thing.
My rebuttal to this is (they usually include murder as the bad thing being done), “Are you telling me fear of hell is the only thing keeping you from murdering me right now? Says a lot more about your morals than mine.”
It seriously feels good to see this written down sometimes. I hate that religion somehow laid claim to morality.
Maybe, just maybe, also because that may have been the way to get some impulsive but simple-minded people to not make a mess for those around them. Didn’t work with everyone, though. If it ever did, with anyone.
Also, it seems shockingly easy to get some people to commit evil acts as they think they are doing good… and that usually comes carrying a lot of religious ideology and/or methodology, curiously enough.
Yeah, it can be easily influenced. See Stanford prisoner experiment. Religion can be an influence too, but religios people can’t imagine a life without it.
“Have you accepted the al pastor into your heart?”
you seriously don’t understand god
says the poor lost soul who also says
why be good if there is no hell
Do many adults still go around
spoutingbelieving whatever they heard from their parents or Sunday school teacher when they were children, just to get them to stop asking “complicated questions”?EDIT: a word
I want some tacos now.
What do you mean by “now?” Like an eternal now? Like how it’s never not now until it’s stopped being now?
Yes. We would like an unending amount of tacos. The correct number of tacos is always one more.
Okay this is actually a perfect eastern vs western philosophy debate hidden in a taco.
I am going to make some very broad strokes here. So no armchair quarterbacking me. I know it’s way more nuanced but I’m not writing an essay on Lemmy.
In general Western philosophies always have a “goal.” Your human life is to prove your worthiness. You need to look back and atone for your past mistakes. You need to look forward so you can do the right things to be worthy. It is very little about being in the now.
Eastern philosophies are much more about being aware of the moment. The past has happened it cannot be changed you should not worry about it. The future doesn’t exist so there’s no need to focus on it. The only thing you can affect is the very moment in time you’re in and the only way to affect it is through your actions.
In this case tacos are the moment. So next time you’re eating a delicious taco. Spend that moment to be one with your taco. Concentrate on the smell. Then feel the texture as you pick it up. How the various colors interact with each other. Then as you bite off some, feel the textures in your mouth and how the flavors interact. Watch yourself, be aware of every time you chew. Remember there is no past there’s no future there is only tacos.
Western philosophy
if god is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent then what is the point in anything
- John Calvin
I am going to make some very broad strokes here. So no armchair quarterbacking me. I know it’s way more nuanced but I’m not writing an essay on Lemmy.
In general Western philosophies always have a “goal.”
I know you said it was a broad stroke, and that in general is that way, but I kind of disagree still. I think Western philosophy is about finding if we have a purpose and what is it, and many philosophers since Greek antiquity to today have answered they are skeptic of it existing or it being able to be known. From Pyrrho of Elis and Hegesias of Cyrene to Arthur Schopenhauer and Slavoj Žižek.
The word we are looking for is teleology (not to be confused with theology). It refers to finality, that there is a goal. Many philosophers did not subscribe to a teolology.
Your human life is to prove your worthiness.
Same thing as before.
You need to look back and atone for your past mistakes. You need to look forward so you can do the right things to be worthy. It is very little about being in the now.
I agree a little more with this, there are many Western philosophers preoccupied with ethics. But that’s why I think they were talking of different dimensions. It was not that existentially you should roam the past or future, that your mental activity should be there. It was about being responsible in the now for the future, and to be held accountable for your past. It was a morality thing, not a conscious/existential thing.
In this case tacos are the moment. So next time you’re eating a delicious taco. Spend that moment to be one with your taco. Concentrate on the smell. Then feel the texture as you pick it up. How the various colors interact with each other. Then as you bite off some, feel the textures in your mouth and how the flavors interact. Watch yourself, be aware of every time you chew. Remember there is no past there’s no future there is only tacos.
Hey! Go away with that mindful nonsense. If I do that, I spend too much time with a single bite and I cannot eat as much (/s).
Such mentality likely has to do with the environment. I read some that strategy games are more popular in Northern Europe than in Southern Europe, with the explanation that strategic planning is more essential for survival when the amount of sunlight is limited and there are months were you can’t really go outside because of snow and coldness.
That would mean adverse conditions require it more to plan for the future. Coldness is indeed just an example for such an environment.
Umm so it doesn’t get cold in Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan, the Gobi Desert, Northern China, etc.?
I have no idea how it plays between northern and southern Europe but there’s no way that the cold environment has anything to do with this it gets equally as cold if not colder in some parts of Asia. Plus many of those places don’t have the abundance of resources that would be provided by the forests or coasts of Northern Europe.
People may argue against this, but they probably have never had a real, good taco.
