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An idling gas engine may be annoyingly loud, but that’s the price you pay for having WAY less torque available at a standstill.
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The motors have never been the problem, it’s always been the battery. See train engines, they are a diesel generator with electric motors.
This is where history pisses me off. We should have been headlong into battery research after the oil embargoes. Could have been 40 years faster.
I hope you are not talking about battery locomotives.
With overhead wires the train has a practically unlimited battery capacity.
There are use cases for battery trains. In remote, mountainous locations where the cost for electrifying a track is very high it is not uncommon to use electric trains with batteries. Here in Germany we have several regions where diesel trains have been replaced by them.
Not really. Battery tech has always been advancing. Even today electric vehicles have barely come up with anything new, battery wise. Everyone wants something better than lithium base. No one can get anything to market.
It advanced at a glacier pace because there was no massive driving force. It only kicked off a bit with cell phones and then in any substantial way with laptops. (Yes, batteries existed before that for different things, but there was no massive driving force.) Now imagine what would have happened if we funded it starting in the 1970s.
Oil is honestly an amazing product, chemistry wise there is so much we can do with it and energy wise it’s a extremely concentrated and easily transported form of energy.
Energy wise one liter of oil is equivalent to 10 person working for a day !
I repeat, using one liter of oil is like having 10 “slaves” working for us for a day.
Its easy to see why oil became the base of our modern civilization, and easy to see why we don’t manage to stop using it even though it’s destroying us.
“On the other hand gas has a much higher energy density than batteries and a much faster refuel rate.”
It’s exactly this. Convenience. We’ve become accustomed to how convenient it is and don’t want to be put out.
On the other hand, it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank. So if you drive less than 60 miles a day, and have acess to another car for long trips, an electric is even more convenient.
That’s basically 90% of every car owner.
It’s one of those things where people feel like they’re going to take a road trip every weekend, but most people are just using their car to commute to and from work and maybe take one or two longer trips per year. The time saved by not having to stop at a gas station throughout the the year is less than the additional time taken at a fast charging station for the rare road trip.
Unfortunately, people tend to buy vehicles to best accomplish 1% of their driving. I live in the suburbs and almost every house has a giant pickup parked in front. Not because people are in the construction business and need to haul a lot of stuff, but because once a year they might go to Home Depot and it feels good to put their two bags of mulch in the back.
But 100% of the time they feel like they’ve got big ‘ole balls.
Part of the problem is not having the money or space for an extra vehicle.
I drive an SUV, I don’t particularly like driving an SUV, I get a lot of use out of having a larger vehicle, I’m an avid DIYer who makes frequent trips to the hardware store to pick up lumber and such, I have a lot of outdoor hobbies and usually end up being the one who drives so I’m carrying gear for several people, I don’t exactly go off roading, but those hobbies sometimes take me on some poorly maintained, deeply rutted, muddy roads and 4wd has gotten me out of some jams, I occasionally drive onto the beach to go fishing, usually find myself towing a small trailer a couple times a year, and I’m an essential employee that lives in an area that gets snow with a weird schedule that usually has me commuting before the snow plows have gotten through everywhere.
But even though I probably get more actual use out of an SUV than most people, most often I’m still only driving about 20 miles or less a day, on paved roads, in weather that doesn’t require anything more than working headlights, wipers, and tires that aren’t totally bald.
If I had the budget and parking space I’d probably have the cheapest base model EV I could find for most of my commuting and small errands and save the SUV for my days off and when it snows. That’s not the case though.
It took me a while to take the plunge, but I’m never going back
The last time I heard someone say that, they were taking about bidets, and it was life changing.
Or just use the clothes dryer circuit… Charge the car overnight… Get all the range.
You don’t even need the clothes dryer circuit, the vast majority of people don’t drive enough in a day to need anything more than a standard 15a outlet
it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank
But, to make that possible, you basically have to have a “gas station” at home. If you own your own house you can modify it to install a charging spot. If you rent, you might not have that option.
Are those two things actually important?
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I’m sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn’t matter.
Plus the technology to battery swap is well in use for electric vehicles (see Nio, who have thousands of battery swap stations in China and some in Europe too). 3 mins and you have a full battery.
It matters to people who drive more during the day than their range allows. They don’t want to wait 20 minutes for the car to charge every time they venture 300km out and back /s
Why do people still pretend it takes longer than 20 minutes to get a 50% charge increase?
Wait, I’m confused (out of date??) I thought it took hours to charge. Has that changed?
Fast chargers can fully charge my car (range ~400mi) in about an hour
fast charging on modern HV battery packs will get you to 80% from 0 in like 15-20 minutes. I’ve seen lower, but it’s really fucking usable now.
Most cars will charge to 80% pretty fast. 20%-70% is really fast on most.
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I don’t have enough charge for my trip. I’m also thirsty.
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I go to a grocery store with a fast charger.
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I buy a drink.
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I have enough charge.
If it’s a long trip where I need more charge, I choose a car snack, and I’ll have enough.
If I’m on an actual long car trip and I want to charge all the way from the warning light to 100%, I will need to eat a meal anyway. I just find a McDonald’s/cafe,/restaurant/whatever with a fast charger, and it’ll be full before I’m done.
But finding a store/eating place with a fast charger is still waaaay less convenient than just finding a place where I can get diesel in seconds, and find a different place to get drinks/food/snacks.
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Because it’s currently easier to find a gas station than a charger that will do that performance. Now I’m willing to wait 8 hrs for 10%, but others certainly aren’t.
You must live in a red state or the middle of nowhere. It’s easy to find chargers everywhere I’ve been.
Yes, my point. I have to charge my car at home because of charging stations are either far, or Tesla owners park in them to do shopping.
Saying I live somewhere shit doesn’t disprove my point that gas is more readily available.
Yeah because the conservative government of those areas is actively suppressing them from being built.
My parents live in the sticks, in a red state, and I have no problem finding charging stations within twenty miles from them.
Why /s? Road trips are a thing, and you’d be hard pressed to find a combo restaurant/charging station that’s along your path.
Road trips are a tiny fraction of all vehicle use, it’s fine to relegate them to specialty vehicles.
Quick Google says a great majority of Americans take road trips. Even though it’s a tiny fraction of their driving, it’s still a deciding factor for many when choosing a car. Not all people have the luxury of affording a second car just for road trips.
Public transportation would be good, but there’s less flexibility to it. For example, just yesterday, on a return from a roadtrip, I got stomach sick and had to request frequent stops. That wouldn’t fly on a train.
I’d love it if we had affordable and flexible public transport for getting all across the country, though.
I take road trips in my EV. It’s fine. You get to pee and walk the dog. The extra time isn’t much and it’s actually way more relaxing
It’s weird how defensive people get over their cannonball road trips. It’s great to take a few minutes on a break while taking a long trip.
That sounds good.
Unless you’re taking road trips literally every other week you could just rent a gas vehicle when it’s time for a road trip. Rather than make the decision of the car you’re going to drive every single day based on something you only do maybe once a year.
It’s why I don’t own a pickup truck, I actually do haul cars, help people move and all that shit that people say is why they need a pickup truck but I just go to fucking U-Haul and rent either the Sprinter van or the pickup truck for 30 bucks plus mileage when I need one. And I do actually keep track of my financial records with a double Ledger Finance app I just went and looked and I’m still nowhere near the cost of a used pickup truck from all of that renting
Good idea. I hadn’t thought of that.
Take road trips how often? Once a year? Maybe twice?
Yeah, but road trips can be expensive. Suppose you want to go from Harrisburg PA to Rockford IL with 2 adults and 1 teenager from November 15 to 22.
- By car that’s about 1500 miles. An average car gets 21 mpg, so that’s about 71 gallons. Gas is around $3.5 per gallon, so the trip costs about $250 in gas. You’ll need a hotel. I picked a random one in Ohio. $110 for the way up, $185 for the way back. I guess that’s a Thanksgiving price hike. $545 total.
- By train, let’s say Amtrak because that came up first. $438 up, and that includes boarding a train at midnight and sleeping on the train, and then riding a bus from Chicago to Rockford for 2 hours. $483 back down, and this time when you sleep on the train you have to wake up by 5 AM to get off. Also this is coach class, and those seats aren’t great for sleeping. At least you don’t need a hotel. $921 total.
- By plane, it’s $650 round trip, simple as, but you have to leave at 6 AM on the way up and 5 AM on the way back. It can cost $200 more to get a more convenient time, but let’s assume you’re going for economy alone. $650 total.
That’s not accounting for food prices along the way. That could bring the car ride up to the same price as the plane if you don’t pack food, but if you’re spending extra on convenience there, you’re probably willing to spend extra for convenience on the plane too.
So it’s probably safe to say that, for this group, the car saves about $100 per year, but helping to protect the environment is worth that price. On the other hand, there’s something to be said for the flexibility and ease of planning on a car. For a bigger family, cars would be a way better option, and for a family without kids or a lone traveler, planes are the way better option. Trains are right out.
restaurant/charging station combo
The people providing the charging infrastructure here haven’t figured out this important point yet. Gas stations are a terrible place to put chargers, no one wants to stop at a gas station for fifteen minutes to an hour at a time. Charging stations need to be in places people will be stopping anyway, or at the very least places that provide something to do while waiting. Restaurants, shopping centres, tourist traps, whatever.
Here it’s exacerbated by the fact that the fastest chargers we have only deliver about 60kW. Not even close to the 200+ some EVs need to get the fast charging times they advertise. But that 60kW would be perfectly fine if I could spend the time in a restaurant instead of standing around at a gas bar in the middle of nowhere.
Hell, even cheap (or free) “level 2” chargers outside restaurants and shopping malls would be a huge help.
I live in Denmark, here the chargers are placed where people park anyway. Grocery stores, parking lots, rest stops…
It’s getting so easy to find a fast charger/resto combo, that we don’t even plan it from home.
I’ve seen few 200+ watts chargers without looking for them, but the car is ready faster than I am anyway.
I’m so glad here in Germany they do that more often now. We have a quite a few large charging parks next to restaurants and bakeries. I just made a 9 hour trip to Denmark and it was a pretty nice experience overall. Only downside is you have to plan ahead if you want this convenience because the majority is still spots with 1-2 occupied chargers at some ugly, smelly Autobahn rest area.
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Although own an electric car, I believe range is still an issue. I was specifically addressing fuel density and charging time. EVs have their issues, but I believe they will be solved over time even though they are unlikely to beat an ICE in fuel density or charge rate for a long time. But I don’t think those things are actually important, because the problem is solved in a different way.
Yes, for people who can’t charge at home. I’d love to swap to electric, but 1 hour trip to go charge the car at the nearest charging station is not realistic - especially since I’d need to do it twice as often as 10min trip to refuel.
Also there’s the EV prices, starting at 2-3 times more than my current whip lol
My point is that we should be focused on the outcomes we want. It isn’t really important that fossil fuels are a lot more energy dense if the electric cars can travel twice as far. They can’t, but I’d be willing to bet we will get to that point with fossil fuels still being more energy dense.
But also as I mentioned in the comment you relied to, Nio have a vast network of battery swap stations where you can get a full charge in a couple of minutes, the same as filling up at a gas station.
The price of EVs are a problem, and not the only problem, but my point was that the specific things mentioned don’t stop us having better EVs than ICEs, because we will get the same outcome in a different way.
I absolutely agree that we should work on improving EVs, charging network and whatever technologies makes it better and more suitable for more people. But every person in need of a car has unique hard requirements for the car that can’t be ignored as “inconvenience” - and many of those people have to drive with fossil fuels still.
Also, battery swap stations being available in X location doesn’t matter to people living in Y location, nor should people in Y location buy EV in hopes that it will be better in Z years
I agree completely. I am not trying to argue that everyone can or should go out and buy an EV.
I was specifically addressing the points that seemed to be claiming EVs are not the right direction for cars or engines to be advancing towarda, by pointing out that the barriers aren’t blocking all paths.
I honestly believe the person starting the thread was on the same wavelength, just pointing out the reason so many still choose ice
Yes, somewhat.
Not as much, to most people, as most people think though.
Are those two things actually important?
For some people? Absolutely.
Are those two things actually important?
yes, they are. they make difference between actually usable technology and engineer’s dream.
Electric motors are a lot more efficient, and battery technology is quickly approaching the place where you can get the same range with an electric motor as with an ICE.
i doubt we even have enough rare metals for 8 or 16 billion batteries. most of them are being mined in politically unstable or to western civilization unfriendly countries, with terrible effect on the environment.
efficiency matters, it is not a question of how good single battery is.
As for refuel rate, I spend no time waiting for my car to charge because it charges at home while I’m sleeping, so the refuel rate doesn’t matter.
oh good. YOU have it solved, so the rest of the world does not matter, i assume…? fuck all these people, right?
Hey mate I’m just here for some friendly discussion, I’m not here to argue until I’m blue in the face.
There is a difference between your above points and the original claim.
Fuel density doesn’t matter, what matters is how far you can drive on a charge.
Charge time doesn’t matter if you can swap a battery in 3 minutes instead of waiting to charge.
For your new point of rare earth materials, this isn’t related to the original energy density or charge time points, but high density batteries that don’t use rare earth metals already exist, the problem is cost. That will change over time.
Also you’re ignoring that fossil fuels are also dug out of the ground.
Fuel density doesn’t matter, what matters is how far you can drive on a charge.
Charge time doesn’t matter if you can swap a battery in 3 minutes instead of waiting to charge.
- they matter for the reason i explained. you are acting like we can simply build as much batteries as we want, which is not true
- and change them as conveniently as filling up the gas tank, which is also not true.
- and the whole “just swap the battery” concept leads to need of more batteries -> go to (1)
Also you’re ignoring that fossil fuels are also dug out of the ground
i am not, i am not defending fossil fuel, i am just pointing out that the ev concept has problems that are not widely talked about.
just because some other strategy has problems doesn’t mean your strategy is problem free.
most of them are being mined in politically unstable or to western civilization unfriendly countries, with terrible effect on the environment.
Has that ever stopped everyone, though?
I wonder if looking at the system as a whole for both systems would reveal a different difference. (infra needed to transport and fill those gas station tanks vs infra needed for level 3 charging stations)
On the one hand the Nokia 3310’s battery lasts a week. On the other hand the iPhone 15…
Just plug your car in when you’re not using it like you’d charge your phone overnight. It’s only a problem if you can’t charge at home (due to on street parking and no charging facilities on that street) and you can’t charge somewhere you usually take your car (eg a workplace).
PHEVs for the win.
But remember, electric motors also require next to no maintenance and can last for many years of runtime. Pros and cons.
And no gearing, so no complex moving part assemblies…
Unfortunately, brushless motors are also trivial to waterproof.
Uh, maintenance is one thing where ICE wins (until very recently, thanks fucktards in car industry). Cars have been generally very easy to work on, with anyone with a toolbox being able to do most their repairs in a shed
That’s true. But since now it’s all messed up shit that you can’t fix yourself they’re on fairly equal line there.
Only thing stopping me having one is cost.
For me it’s cost and having a place to charge since I rent.
Unless you take road trips often having a place to charge is literally any random Outlet. You don’t need a fancy dedicated fast charger if you drive less than 100 miles in a day. Think about how many hours your car is just sitting at home, it has that many hours to charge it doesn’t matter if it charges in 1 and 1/2 hours or 9 hours as long as it gets charged
So even as a renter as long as you have any kind of outdoor outlet or garage you’ve got somewhere to charge
I’m not who you replied to, but you are assuming a lot of the living situations for millions and millions of people. I live in a building built in the 40s and only have street parking. I do have a pretty damn good public transit system at my disposal, though. That’s within reach for my short travel needs today.
When I rented I only had street parking. In that situation an electric car is just another thing to manage. If you’ve got a garage to park in, sure, even with a basic 220V outlet.
As long as you have a driveway or garage, yes. Which a lot of people (most?) don’t have.
I have an EV and charge at home. I love it. That said, I’ve lived in tons of rentals in college and immediately after. Not one of them would’ve had a practical option to charge, even on a regular outlet.
The cost, the fact that I don’t have a parking space at my apartment, and the fact that insurance is expensive.
I don’t have a parking space at my apartment
A way to charge it at home is also a major issue for anybody who lives in an apartment.
Not really. The cities across the world are introducing public chargers in lamp posts and at the kerb. While it is kind of an issue today, it won’t be tomorrow.
Hopefully it won’t be, but charging an electric car is still not a standard thing for apartment buildings to offer tenants. So, for the moment, that’s a major reason for renters to not take the plunge.
My apartment block in London has underground parking with allocated chargers. There are multiple lamp post chargers over here and other types of chargers. So, for the moment it’s already fine.
Parking space i have. The expense is in the truck i want at 90k or more and the hookup of the home charger, which i can do myself but the code inspection might differ
A 2 year old Polestar 2 with 12,000 miles just cost my buddy slightly less than $25k. You can’t even get an Accord with that age and mileage that cheap these days! Hertz dumped a bunch of them on the market recently, they were too much fun to be a profitable rental so they’re absurdly cheap right now
When I was looking recently I was shocked at how cheap used polestars are. Such nice cars.
Sounds good until you have to replace the battery. I want one of the rivian rts but they are still too pricy even used.
“Electric cars are too expensive!”
“I’m only interested in the most expensive of electric cars!”
you drive your cars for 300000 miles?
Lots of people BUY their cars with 300k miles.
My current ice vehicle has 320k on it now
Regarding battery degradation - I’ve owned my EV for 4.5 years now, and its battery is still at 93% of its original capacity. That equates to maybe 10 miles of range lost, from an original range of around 230 miles. At that rate, it’ll still be giving usable range in 10, 15 years from now. It’s even warrantied to keep over 75% of its original capacity for 8 years / 100,000 miles - if it fails to achieve this (likely due to some defect), it’s replaced for free.
And when it does eventually need replacing, it can be recycled into something like a home storage battery - where the power demand is not as high, but still more than enough to power everything in your home for days. Meanwhile, the car can be upgraded to a brand new battery, which will likely last even longer.
Edit: In fact, I tell a lie - I did have to replace a battery on my EV recently. The 12v lead-acid battery, that ICE cars also rely on.
How about you start looking at actual cars instead?
Yeah good thing ICE cars don’t have anything expensive that breaks after 300,000 miles like an engine or a transmission…
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Will go down in the next years.
Gas engine makes good noises. Checkmate.
It’s incredible how certain people are conditioned to think the sound of a gas motor and shifting because your puny motor is out of optimal torque and rpm range are manly.
Vroom vroom is fun.
Shifting is fun.
Fun is good.
Never said anything about it being manly, but it can sound good.
I’m a car guy and far from manly. I drive a loud annoying stick shift because it’s fun and life is too short to be bored while driving.
Life is too short to have to fucking drive everywhere.
Yeh, but unless I uproot my life and move to a different country, I’m stuck doing it, so I can either bitch and moan about how much I hate it, or have the best time I can doing it 🤷🏾♂️
Yeah, I guess all those professional female race car drivers are doing it to feel “manly”
There you go pointlessly gendering again!
“Good” = “manly” to you? Wow. Sexist.
The ioniq 5 N has that covered, evidently: https://youtu.be/DSIguemKIbQ?si=Do2diTJm8-_Hb9Ro
Or playing cards in the wheels
Lol i would definitely buy that. And i don’t own a car…but if i would
Think of the most annoying sound you know. Whether it’s country music, rap, lawnmower before 8am on sat, etc that is your “good noises” sound like.
There is a huge difference between a finely tuned V8 with an appropriate muffler versus a gas lawnmower, but to each there own.
Great username btw
Mr. Monkey subjectively your finely tuned v8 sounds like a 400lb basement dwelling gorilla someone has fed laxatives and recorded from the bottom of a well used coachella porta potty.
I dunno, I’m “team electric is objectively better in every way” but I gotta agree, a fancy tuned racecar engine sounds like angry beast and that’s pretty sexy.
The jolt of max acceleration of an electric motor in complete silence is also extremely sexy, though.
Lol ok I get it you’re all Car-o-sexuals. It’s cool but can you guys just keep it to your bedrooms and rest stops?
I don’t care much about cars overall but I do like angry beasts…
In today’s edition of lemmy: poetry.
Think of the nicest sound you know. A well-tuned instrument performing a delicate melody, a passionate singer performing their heart out, a cacophony of songbirds. That’s what my good noises sound like when done right.
Obviously nobody wants to hear a fart can Honda Civic at 4am, but a fantastically engineered Italian V10 has its own melody that can’t really be replicated otherwise. These examples will be missed, and the survivors will be sought after like a vintage violin.
So total fucking silence? I swear to God it’s like the call to stroke each other off for you guys.
Huh?
Between the fart can and the Lambo, which are you more likely to hear?
You just gonna sit there and yuck the mainstream yum like your opinions are better than everyone else’s?
When accelerating my Leaf makes a “woooooooooooOOOOOOOOP” noise I’ve seen described as the “UFO sound”
Tbh I like it a lot more than the vroom of even my motorcycle cuz it’s funny
I do love the whine of the drive units when going full throttle on EVs, it reminds me how much current is surging through those wires
I don’t see how making noise is good. I live in a street that doesn’t get much traffic, but even one car is loud enough to be bothering.
I don’t want to pause my music and conversations just because someone decided that vroom vroom sounds were more important than me hearing literally anything else.
Even more that noise pollution is definitely a thing, and affect both mental health and physical one.
The majority of sound for cars are not the motor but the wheels compressing air, after I think 50kph, the sound of an ev or a ic is basically the same.
Vehicles making noise actually is good, for pedestrians’ sake, but yeah ICE vehicles make far more than they need to. Some (? many? I’m not sure how standard it is) electric vehicles make a sort of beeping sound for that reason.
If you’re in an area where pedestrians may be crossing the road, traffic should be slow enough to use permeable brick pavers, which increase road noise, help with rainwater drainage, and add a little green to the road if find right.
Well that sounds cool; what about those of us who live in conservative hellscapes? I’m pretty sure ‘road maintenance’ is a sin here
Gas engines have decent range. Gas engines are cheaper (as the electric engine prices are artificially inflated, just look at Chinese prices), with gas engines you can listen to the sound of the engine to diagnose problems before they occur, batteries don’t degrade (you still have car batteries, but when they degrade, you can still drive a car for as long as with the new battery. You can refuel it in a couple of seconds. Anyone can make one sided arguments. There isn’t a best thing for everything.
The reason why you may be able to diagnose an ICE by sound is because they’re complex. That’s not a positive. An electric motor has just a few moving parts. If it goes bad you don’t really need to work to figure it out and fix it.
The rest of the arguments can be made, but as you imply they’re disingenuous. The sound one is just not a benefit at all.
I was apprehensive about EVs but the first time I rode in one I immediately fell in love with it. I get carsick easily, and the super-smooth ride without the chug-chug-chug of an internal combustion engine made the experience surprisingly much more pleasant for me. I do not use a car, but if I had to buy one, I don’t think I could ever stomach an ICE again knowing that this alternative is available.
Chug-chug-chug? Are you sure you weren’t in a steam locomotive?
At a stretch, I guess you could say that a battery that’s going bad doesn’t make a sound.
But yes, electric motors are way more reliable than internal combustion engines and objectively superior. You would never use an ICE over an EE for any application where you have a reliable supply of electricity.
Range anxiety is largely a perception thing. The vast majority of car journeys are well within the range of an EV, you just need to get in the habit of plugging in like you would your phone. For journey’s long enough for it to be more than a single charge you really should be stopping for more than a few seconds anyway as you need recharging.
you just need to get in the habit of plugging in like you would your phone
Yeah but not everyone lives in suburbia with ample plug-in options available to them. Where I live the street-side charging spots are usually occupied, and the parking spot that I rent has no charging.
For journey’s long enough for it to be more than a single charge you really should be stopping for more than a few seconds anyway as you need recharging.
True to some extent, I have to check my travel logs but I do feel like stopping for an hour every 300km or so is longer and much more often than I would normally stop on long road trips. My (diesel) car has a range of well over 1000km so often I stop for only 15 minutes for a coffee and to stretch my legs, or just for a restroom stop and a driver swap. We usually plan just one big stop (1h) for dinner. Most destinations I’ve been to I could reach without refueling at all.
There’s also the issue of contention for charging spots. On gas stations near the big highways towards popular destinations you often already have to queue to get gas. This will become worse when EVs become common place and people occupy a charging spot for an hour instead of a fuel pump for 30 seconds to top up.
Little anecdote: every year around the holiday season, there are several company wide e-mails from EV driving co-workers requesting to swap cars (with a co-worker who has a CE car) to go on holiday. So I think the practical experience may not be as rosy as you paint it.
Okay, but it is still jumping through hoops which doesn’t exist with gas cars. What if I have 3 people driving, like in a road trip? You can’t continuously drive after refueling anymore. It isn’t just a perception thing, it absolutely requires planning and stops you wouldn’t take otherwise.
You’re arguing in favor of quickly swappable batteries.
China’s got your back.
https://hbr.org/2024/05/how-one-chinese-ev-company-made-battery-swapping-work
jumping through hoops which doesn’t exist with gas cars.
You have to physically drive to a different location to get petrol. That’s a hoop. Just because you’re used to it doesn’t mean it’s not there.
What if I have 3 people driving, like in a road trip? You can’t continuously drive after refueling anymore. It isn’t just a perception thing, it absolutely requires planning and stops you wouldn’t take otherwise.
It is a perception. The vast majority of trips this won’t be an issue. In the once in a bluemoon that you’ll be driving more than the range of the car, yes, it could be. This is where it’s perception. People seem to think that they’ll run commuting to work or half the journeys they take will be affected. Whereas it’s really really rare.
Range anxiety is not just about a single trip. You are assuming that not only will we all be able to just charge whenever and wherever we park our cars, but that we’ll never fail to do so. You also assume that only one person will be driving the car. If I forget to plug in my phone it’s not a big deal. I can just plug it in on the way to work or bring a battery pack. And it is not uncommon for my kid to bring our car home on empty. And then of course there are broken charges and unreliable utilities. I can’t even count on a reliable internet connection wherever I go and that can be supplied wirelessly. I have lived far enough out in the country before that I’ve had to deal with range anxiety in ICE vehicles. The threat of running out of gas before you can make it to a gas station is a very real and stressful issue. I can only imagine how much worse it is going to be when it takes more than just a gas can and a few minutes to get you going when you screw up.
just look at Chinese prices
The prices of chinese EVs are artificially deflated! They heavily subsidize their EV manufacturing sector.
What about the european electric car prices in china?
Your argument is with electric cars vs ice cars. xkcd likely specifically was talking about engines just so all the range arguments don’t work. It’s just engine vs engine and there electric is far superior.
That’s like saying a sword is a better weapon than a gun because the sword can bei used for cutting, hitting und thrusting and also as a tool while the gun can only hit and shoot while needing additional components to function that quickly run out while being more complex to build. You cant just ignore the context to make your argument. He’s clearly talking about cars here.
I didn’t remove context, you added context.
electric cars are expensive, the engines are pretty cheap.
In which world electric motors are more expensive than combustion engines?
The EV motors are cheaper but we need to include the battery. An empty gas tank does not cost much. An uncharged car battery is pretty expensive.
You’re moving goalposts. Electric motors are cheaper. The end.
The motor yes. But an electric car does not move with a motor only.
By just calculating the motor we are making up cost comparisons that do not reflect the actual cost of the car.
Are you having trouble understanding the English language? The OP clearly stated the following:
Gas engines are cheaper
Which is patently false.
I think you are having trouble understanding the English language. Most people have heard of a thing called context.
“A programmer is going to the store and his wife tells him to buy a gallon of milk, and if there are eggs, buy a dozen. So the programmer goes shopping, does as she says, and returns home to show his wife what he bought. But she gets angry and asks, ‘Why’d you buy 13 gallons of milk?’ The programmer replies, ‘There were eggs!’”
Now as we are describing car types one with a gas and one with an electric engine, and comparing their prices, maybe put the LLM context tokens slightly higher before responding.
It’s about the battery, nerd. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
We’ll just do what trains do.
Replace the battery with a massive diesel generator. Run that to get power to the electric motors.
Best of both worlds!
Some trains. In most of Europe, trains are electric and get their power from overhead lines (same for trams and even some buses).
On the other hand, many large ships are diesel-electric. And those gigantic mining haulers as well.
some buses
Trolleybus: when you need a cheap moustache ride.
There are some much nicer more modern ones for those not into the post-Soviet-Republic esthetic. The super-long articulated trolley buses are fun.
Best of both worlds!
This is a joke, right? Efficiency is atrocious.
Hybrid cars were a topic in germany a few years ago. Laws provided funding for them too (grouped as EVs), despite their huge weight and low efficiency. I think it was solved since then?
The “Best of both worlds!” was the part that should have told you that it was a joke. That and the fact that the statement is purposely ridiculous.
I think there was a Renault that worked like this. I think the main issue is that you need a decently sized battery that can supply enough power or else the ICE needs to start every time you hit the gas pedal like was the case with the older Prius models and then you might as well connect it to the wheels and you can have a smaller electric motor.
But batteries keep improving and you can pull more power per kWh now. Maybe with solid state batteries this power train could become the more affordable option.
The way of Toyota hybrids! Though those can power wheels somewhat-directly too.
And almost fully do at highway speeds with how everything is geared
Electric vehicles a bad product for 95% of people right now. When is America just going to invest in public transportation.
Pouring billions of dollars widening highway widening projects and giving automotive companies a tax break to charge a premium on electric cars has always been idiotic.
What do you mean by bad for 95% of people? 95% of people drive less than 60 miles in a day. Which is something that can easily be recovered overnight with a standard 15 amp outlet not even a special dedicated charger they would have been fine with early electric vehicles much less what we have today
Pretty sure they’re the type to think that if you live within a mile of someone else, any car is bad and every non-walking movement you make should be with public transit. Basically the fuckcars type.
(For the record, I get the frustration on the reliance of cars in everyday life. But the last mile problem is real and getting a practical transit option outside of moderately-sized cities is pretty much impossible)
How many of you guys live in a house you own and can install a fast charger or have reserved parking with even an outlet. How many charging stations are available on your routs. How many of those chargers don’t get vandalized and the copper cables cut off with bolt cutters. How many of you guys can afford a typical EV and the cost of charging at a fast charger on your salary.
Most importantly how does it solve the issue of long distance travel, driving in cold weather with reduced range, and towing. If anyone read my post I said EVs are not ready for 95% of people yet.
It pretty much boils down to living in a small town where there are no chargers and if you’re renting especially there is typically no place to plug in. Also issues with not being able to make road trips that don’t have chargers along the way, reduced range in cold weather, and if you need to tow it’s pretty pointless in an EV.
I agree public transport is the better option, but electric cars are a good option for the vast majority of people as long as we’re going to need cars.
I agree but if you can’t park near an outlet and you have no charging stations in your town it’s pretty impractical to own one. Everywhere I’ve lived so far that’s the case for a lot of individuals. There’s also issues with long trips, reduced range in cold weather, and towing being pretty much pointless in an EV.
Wy cant we have both public transport and electric cars?
Your Lemmy instance is running under Estonian domain and yet you still imagine the world as just USA
I mean I live in America, my perspective will be American. I’d argue Americans are typically really into cars and the freedom of the open road. I mean we pretty much made electric cars popular so I don’t get your point.
I don’t know the state of Estonia but I do pay attention to the rest of the world. Most European countries that embrace and properly build out public transportation have happier citizens, livelier public spaces, and healthier business overall.
Do you really believe that 95% of people live in the USA? Guess what, you’re wrong. And for 95% of population electric cars are amazing.
We can be civil, no need to be combative for no reason. If you like electric cars that’s fine, I like electric cars too but we don’t all live in California.
Most people live in apartments here and the only charger available was closed down because maintenance and upkeep was too much for the community center that installed it.
From personal experience, you also need a garage to keep an electric car in if you’re in an extreme cold climate, those batteries can fail if in the deep cold for long enough and those car companies do NOT have the replacement parts in stock to fix it quickly.
This is why modern EVs need heating and cooling systems for their batteries. Did you have a Nissan Leaf by any chance?
Nah, Chevy Volt
First Gen?
Final gen
I think in certain areas for your EV you want a gas powered heater for the battery and cabin. That’s how I think EV transit buses should do it too.
I live in an area with the exact opposite issue (my battery MELTED) so I’m probably wrong, but isn’t that what the battery blankets they try to sell you on when you buy an EV is for?
I live in Canada and own a Bolt. Its a pretty unremarkable EV from a tech standpoint. It keeps the batteries at the right temp by heating and cooling them. It really doesnt require any extra effort or special equipment.
The one thing stopping me is seeing how they fare long term with the overwhelming amount of electronics added to the cars.
Hopefully car manufacturers goes a different direction as electronic and appliances company went. Everyone I know that are into EVs went through 2 or 3 different one in the time I’ve owned my ICE car (~10 years). Most because of their lease ending and wanting the absolute newest but others due to battery issues making the car a total loss due to replacement cost.
I’m not optimistic about this. The finance “geniuses” have seen how much money software and electronics companies are making from subscription models and trying to put them into even combustion powered cars. I think it’s BMW that’s already started trying to put heated seats on a subscription model. The equipment’s already in the car but it’s disabled unless you pay them a monthly fee.
Most because of their lease ending and wanting the absolute newest
Technology is moving so fast that this seems like a reasonable approach to me.
Which is also the reason why I wish to wait for the technology to stabilize a little.
I’m hoping that as EVs become more common, conversion kits become a thing. Both straight-electric and PHEV; I would love to pull the oversized engine from my truck (it’s a 4.0 in a Ranger, wtf, it doesn’t need that kind of power) and replace it with a diesel-electric motor-battery-generator combo. With a half decent battery, I would be running on electric 95% of the time; for the other 5% (which is camping on rough trails, no I’m not renting a truck for it), there’d be the diesel generator backup
It’s true. But a v-twin motorcycle like a Ducati or Moto Guzzi ignites your balls like no electric motor can.
I have been looking for new exciting and safe ways to ignite my balls
You’ve got to take a spin on an old naked bmw k100. Not only igniting balls, but also your thighs and lower abdomen!
And they can make you pee blood too on a good day…( Don’t ask)
On the other other hand, gas car makers have regulators by the ballsack. So we’ve got that going for us which is nice
Well maybe in your 3-rd world they do.
He is not wrong, but he is not adressing the actual criticism of electric vehicles, so it is kind of pointless.
And what exactly is the criticism of electric vehicles according to you?
They still are…cars. We don’t need no more cars on our streets. Yeah, they could help to replace some old combustion cars but they still are worse than public transport and bicycles.
I’m all for efficient public transports in downtown, I use them daily myself, but people on suburbs won’t really see a benefit to this.
On the other hand, just switching to electric is a nice start, otherwise we won’t be able to live much longer.
If an electric car catches on fire you can’t put it out.
Actually, piston engines are really bad a torque. It’s why they need a flywheel or a large amount of pistons.
I’ll get an electric when I can get a used one for around $5k and not have to worry about the battery going out and costing $20k.
I’d love to have one, but I don’t see it happening any time soon unfortunately.
I saw a few used VW E Golf listings in my area for $6K. Battery health was at 85%. We’re not as far as you might think.
Advertised at 85%. Also 83 miles at 100% ain’t going to work for me.
My car has a basically brand-new battery (6 months old) and is currently estimated at 6k or so
The time is here already my guy
That’s still double the car price. No thanks.
I’ll get an electric when I can get a used one for around $5k and not have to worry about the battery going out and costing $20k.
The lie detector determined that… Was a lie!
I’m not paying a potential $6k more after buying a used car.
While my sentence could be worded more clearly, that’s a pretty bad reading of what I said.
My car is valued by KBB at ~6k in it’s current state.
That current state includes a battery that was replaced under warranty 6 months ago, and is thus basically a brand-new battery, 9 years left on its warranty and everything.
So if something goes wrong with the battery and it isn’t directly your fault: it gets replaced for free. The only 6k being spent is the original 6k on the car as a whole
I gotcha, I was talking battery prices so I read it as battery prices. What do you have? A Leaf?
We have a food delivery company in town, and they use electric cars. I got to talk to the owners a few years back, and they were paying around that price. So I suspect it’s getting close to fitting your needs. How far do you drive each day, on average?
90+ miles
It all depends on where you live, of course, and how far you are willing to look for that car. And you might want to poke around on Edmunds.com, if only to satisfy your curiosity. Like others have said, and I would agree, it’s getting close to your criteria - 90+ miles, $6K for a used. I suspect that there will be a whole lot more used EVs on the market over the next 5 years. All the ‘cool kids’ want to buy the latest, bleeding edge tech. And watching and waiting to get that tech seems like a prudent and viable option. The other thing the guy with the delivery biz said was that he was getting his cars from CA, because he could find them used, cheap, relatively good condition. Anyway, best to ya. I’m out.
Thats not very accurate, ICE motors aren’t quite out dated just yet. Electric has a long way to go with the storage and refuel cycle
